Issue with the Marquis Boot and then with Proshop Replacement?

[eclipse]

Required apology for clogging this forum up with my issues:

Okay so to start off with sorry for making another boot thread, this issue has honestly been racking my brain for the past couple of days.

Introduction with how far I have gotten skating:

I am an 18-19 year old male who weights 165lbs at 6 foot 1 and has been skating for around 3-4 weeks seriously, I have gotten to skate uk level 5, working towards level 6 and beyond the main issue there has been learning backwards crossovers as a block but that is besides the point. I have began basic jumps such as bunny hop and 3-jump, I have been told by a few people a lot more experienced than me that my jump has good height and is coming along in terms of quality. I can just about do 1 foot spins however the entry is rough. Then for the last piece of information I have been going skating around 8-16 hours per week depending on session availability.

My Actual Issue:

So to start for the first week I had used some cheap (sub 40 pounds cheap) which obviously did not have any ankle support which everyone commented on especially the proshop not even in a terms of trying to sell me a new boot but just as some advice.

Then following for the next couple of weeks until now I had been sold a jackson marquis (support rating apparently 45), these I felt were a lot more comfortable in both fit and the support they gave made me feel so much more comfortable even doing basic activities. I was told in the shop these would good until just before an axel and should last me long enough.

After my boot began to break down at the heel where the sole began peeling up and the sides had began long creasing along near the ankle again. I was told this was not normal for a boot of this level and they should have held up much better and they apologised profusely and said they would contact their jackson distributer because this was more a case of a factory fault.

My actual issue begins here, they believe in the proshop the modern day equivalent to the marquis is the artiste which only has a support rating of 25, I don't know if this is simply a change in way they are rated by jackson as the marquis are older boots being rated 45 on another scale. I had no issues with how hard the boots were and in fact preferred that feeling so I don't really want to go to a softer boot.

I was wondering if it was as I said above and it really is a different stiffness scale and if that is not the case what should I do?

Many Thanks for reading this.

Side note: then again I have read on here the stiffness of the marquis is a 10 vs what is said on other places to add even more confusion

 

[MCsAngel2]

Marquis is not an appropriate skate for you and never was (based on your weight). I had to do a bit of research because the Marquis has been a discontinued model for some time.

The Marquis is a recreational skate. That means it isn't an appropriate skate for a full grown adult to learn skills in. Based on skills it's rated for (up to half jumps), I believe the support rating of 25 or so is correct. Ratings also tend to be based on the average skater being a kid or young teenager, and adult skaters need to go up a level for the correct support level for similar skills.

The Marquis has a pvc (plastic) sole (all their recreational skates do) - I would stop jumping in them at once because you're going to pull the boot away from the sole and you could injure yourself in the process. Your skates, by your own description, are already completely broken down (not broken in - they're dead and no longer have support).

8-16 hours a week is an incredibly high number of hours for a beginner. Just as the right support level for you depends on your weight and your skill level, you need to know that even with the correct boot, skating so frequently is going to break your boots down faster than usual. I'm not in the least surprised that you broke down Marquises in a couple of weeks. Even a correctly supportive boot could break down in as little as 6-12 months, if you're jumping, with as frequently as you skate.

I see some places online where they are referred to as being rated 45, but with the other details I think it's clear it's a mistake (either it's an old rating system they don't use anymore or the ratings got mixed up - I am going by the skills it's rated for which are very basic skills, and the fact that it has a plastic sole) and I do not think the shop is at fault and don't realize these other facts. I think they think it's a true current 45 rating which it very clearly is not, but if it were they'd be right that the boots are somehow defective. They aren't defective, they're just way too basic a boot for you.

It *is* true that a Jackson boot support rated 45 is the correct and lowest rated boot you should be in, and right now their offerings at that rating are the Freestyle (which come with an Aspire blade) for $320 or the Debut for $360 (which is the boot only and rated 55 for men, and unfortunately has pretty ugly Duraguard on it).

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I agree with what @MCsAngel2 said. But I will add that even the 45 rating at your height and weight is totally not stiff enough. In a Jackson men's boot the lowest boot you should be in at this time would be a Debut, the highest Premiere Fusion 2802. Pair those with a JW Coronation Ace or MK Professional blade and you should be good to go.

You are also skating way too much for your level. There are Pros that don't skate as much as you do in a week for example.

Also, I'm confused and have to ask....you stated you are sorry you have to keep coming here with your questions (don't be), but I noticed you are a newly registered poster (today), so were you another poster prior? LOL

 

[eclipse]

Marquis is not an appropriate skate for you and never was (based on your weight). I had to do a bit of research because the Marquis has been a discontinued model for some time.

The Marquis is a recreational skate. That means it isn't an appropriate skate for a full grown adult to learn skills in. Based on skills it's rated for (up to half jumps), I believe the support rating of 25 or so is correct. Ratings also tend to be based on the average skater being a kid or young teenager, and adult skaters need to go up a level for the correct support level for similar skills.

The Marquis has a pvc (plastic) sole (all their recreational skates do) - I would stop jumping in them at once because you're going to pull the boot away from the sole and you could injure yourself in the process. Your skates, by your own description, are already completely broken down (not broken in - they're dead and no longer have support).

8-16 hours a week is an incredibly high number of hours for a beginner. Just as the right support level for you depends on your weight and your skill level, you need to know that even with the correct boot, skating so frequently is going to break your boots down faster than usual. I'm not in the least surprised that you broke down Marquises in a couple of weeks. Even a correctly supportive boot could break down in as little as 6-12 months, if you're jumping, with as frequently as you skate.

I see some places online where they are referred to as being rated 45, but with the other details I think it's clear it's a mistake (either it's an old rating system they don't use anymore or the ratings got mixed up - I am going by the skills it's rated for which are very basic skills, and the fact that it has a plastic sole) and I do not think the shop is at fault and don't realize these other facts. I think they think it's a true current 45 rating which it very clearly is not, but if it were they'd be right that the boots are somehow defective. They aren't defective, they're just way too basic a boot for you.

It *is* true that a Jackson boot support rated 45 is the correct and lowest rated boot you should be in, and right now their offerings at that rating are the Freestyle (which come with an Aspire blade) for $320 or the Debut for $360 (which is the boot only and rated 55 for men, and unfortunately has pretty ugly Duraguard on it).

Thank you for going to all that effort to find out what kind of boot it is, that would make sense that it is that kind of model. I also heard on here yesterday when I was scouring for answers the marquis line was famous for poor quality control.

That is fair enough honestly, that exact process you described began happening it would seem, whether or not it was determined as a factory issue or not you are right. That would probably make sense as to why I had gotten comments from people saying that there wasn't as much support as they expected in them.

How many hours do beginners usually come in out of curiosity? Thank you for explaining that though too.

Okay that makes sense, there were two people in the shop when I returned it and I remember one of them commented that it probably wasn't suitable for me even then he didn't believe it should have kicked the dirt so soon.

So you would suggest getting in contact with the shop and asking to pay the difference between the boot they were going to replace me in and either of those. Which would you personally say would be a better choice?

I agree with what @MCsAngel2 said. But I will add that even the 45 rating at your height and weight is totally not stiff enough. In a Jackson men's boot the lowest boot you should be in at this time would be a Debut, the highest Premiere Fusion 2802. Pair those with a JW Coronation Ace or MK Professional blade and you should be good to go.

You are also skating way too much for your level. There are Pros that don't skate as much as you do in a week for example.

Also, I'm confused and have to ask....you stated you are sorry you have to keep coming here with your questions (don't be), but I noticed you are a newly registered poster (today), so were you another poster prior? LOL

That makes complete sense to be fair, what is the difference between those two blades if I do go for that option?

How much would you recommend? I find I just get too caught up in it because I enjoy it a tonne and just generally boosts my mood even after I finish etc..

Oh, it is pretty just the fact I feel bad for probably asking the exact same question that has been asked a billion times before on a new account. This is my first account however just me being polite.

 

[gliese]

How many hours do beginners usually come in out of curiosity? Thank you for explaining that though too.

4 to 6

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Thank you for going to all that effort to find out what kind of boot it is, that would make sense that it is that kind of model. I also heard on here yesterday when I was scouring for answers the marquis line was famous for poor quality control.

That is fair enough honestly, that exact process you described began happening it would seem, whether or not it was determined as a factory issue or not you are right. That would probably make sense as to why I had gotten comments from people saying that there wasn't as much support as they expected in them.

How many hours do beginners usually come in out of curiosity? Thank you for explaining that though too.

Okay that makes sense, there were two people in the shop when I returned it and I remember one of them commented that it probably wasn't suitable for me even then he didn't believe it should have kicked the dirt so soon.

So you would suggest getting in contact with the shop and asking to pay the difference between the boot they were going to replace me in and either of those. Which would you personally say would be a better choice?

That makes complete sense to be fair, what is the difference between those two blades if I do go for that option?

How much would you recommend? I find I just get too caught up in it because I enjoy it a tonne and just generally boosts my mood even after I finish etc..

Oh, it is pretty just the fact I feel bad for probably asking the exact same question that has been asked a billion times before on a new account. This is my first account however just me being polite.

They are basically the same blades for intermediate level skating, the MK Pro or JW Coro Ace, that is. Anything lower rated than them though isn't going to help you out at this point and will be a waste of time and money. They'll help you a ton with your spins as they have a good rocker. Also, you shouldn't be skating more than 4 hours at your stage.

Good luck!

 

[eclipse]

They are basically the same blades for intermediate level skating, the MK Pro or JW Coro Ace, that is. Anything lower rated than them though isn't going to help you out at this point and will be a waste of time and money. They'll help you a ton with your spins as they have a good rocker. Also, you shouldn't be skating more than 4 hours at your stage.

Good luck!

Thank you for the advice, I will let you know how it all goes once I manage to get everything I need and get back onto the ice.

Have a good one.

 

[Vicki7]

If you’re in the UK I may be able to help with a shop recommendation, depending on where you live. For comparison in terms of ice time, I’m working on the Skate UK Star Silver level and skating around 4 hours a week so you can definitely drop the hours down.
Good luck and I hope you get some boots that will help you progress!

 

[eclipse]

If you’re in the UK I may be able to help with a shop recommendation, depending on where you live. For comparison in terms of ice time, I’m working on the Skate UK Star Silver level and skating around 4 hours a week so you can definitely drop the hours down.
Good luck and I hope you get some boots that will help you progress!

I am indeed in the UK, what shop would you recommend for future reference (kind of limited at the moment to the original shop as that will have the discounted/adjusted price)?

However that seems to be a pretty general consensus in this thread though

 

[Vicki7]

It does depend which shop you've been working with before, but I'd speak to Al's Skate Shop if you can - they're located in Blackpool, they also have a shop in Deeside but that's still closed. I've also had friends have positive experiences with Everglides who are near Gosport I believe.

Al's were able to get my new setup to me within 3 days of ordering (I ordered online after some discussion with them - I don't drive and it's over 3 hours on public transport which I didn't feel comfortable with at the time).

 

[eclipse]

They are basically the same blades for intermediate level skating, the MK Pro or JW Coro Ace, that is. Anything lower rated than them though isn't going to help you out at this point and will be a waste of time and money. They'll help you a ton with your spins as they have a good rocker. Also, you shouldn't be skating more than 4 hours at your stage.

Good luck!

Just need a bit of clarification over what boot I should choose between the Debut and Premiere. I am pretty unaffected by the price difference so it doesn't really play a huge part in my decision making (it is only around 50 pounds difference and I just want a boot that will work for me).

So I understand the risks with over-booting and how it can permanently damage your feet and ankles in different ways to under-booting where there is just lack of support so injuries are more severe and much more likely with more advanced skills. I was wondering what actually causes those injuries directly and what are the signs that something is too stiff.

I obviously wouldn't dream of doing something ridiculous like deciding out of the blue to go from recreational skates to edea piano's etc, which is why I am curious about the suggestion of the Premiere (which I would have assumed would be an over-boot) and want to know what was your logic behind that (I understand you have been an elite and professional skater for years so not doubting you know what you talk about) this is more so just trying to get more knowledgeable myself too .

How substantial should the jump in stiffness feel between the marquis and the debut and then the premiere exactly? is there anything else I should take into account when choosing between the two boots on saturday?

Then also the suggested way to break in both boots so I don't hurt myself or damage the boots? I understand there are articles and videos out there and it is also a good idea to speak to my coach too I was simply wondering what you would say.

It does depend which shop you've been working with before, but I'd speak to Al's Skate Shop if you can - they're located in Blackpool, they also have a shop in Deeside but that's still closed. I've also had friends have positive experiences with Everglides who are near Gosport I believe.

Al's were able to get my new setup to me within 3 days of ordering (I ordered online after some discussion with them - I don't drive and it's over 3 hours on public transport which I didn't feel comfortable with at the time).

I will keep that in mind for the future when I figuratively outgrow these boots or they breakdown before then etc...

However it is good to keep stuff like this in mind as both of them have online fitting services and will more than likely be even better if I went there in person tbh.

 

[Sibelius]

Just need a bit of clarification over what boot I should choose between the Debut and Premiere. I am pretty unaffected by the price difference so it doesn't really play a huge part in my decision making (it is only around 50 pounds difference and I just want a boot that will work for me).

So I understand the risks with over-booting and how it can permanently damage your feet and ankles in different ways to under-booting where there is just lack of support so injuries are more severe and much more likely with more advanced skills. I was wondering what actually causes those injuries directly and what are the signs that something is too stiff.

I obviously wouldn't dream of doing something ridiculous like deciding out of the blue to go from recreational skates to edea piano's etc, which is why I am curious about the suggestion of the Premiere (which I would have assumed would be an over-boot) and want to know what was your logic behind that (I understand you have been an elite and professional skater for years so not doubting you know what you talk about) this is more so just trying to get more knowledgeable myself too .

How substantial should the jump in stiffness feel between the marquis and the debut and then the premiere exactly? is there anything else I should take into account when choosing between the two boots on saturday?

Then also the suggested way to break in both boots so I don't hurt myself or damage the boots? I understand there are articles and videos out there and it is also a good idea to speak to my coach too I was simply wondering what you would say.

I will keep that in mind for the future when I figuratively outgrow these boots or they breakdown before then etc...

However it is good to keep stuff like this in mind as both of them have online fitting services and will more than likely be even better if I went there in person tbh.

Can't really answer all your questions, but here's our experience. My skater moved from a Jackson Elle (pre Fusion) which, as I recall was a "35" on the Jackson stiffness scale, directly to an original Debut at a "50" then to a Premiere, "65". All seamlessly without any break in or difficulties at all. The Debut and the Premiere are veryclose no matter what the numbers say. So, I guess for someone your size (mine is 13 and barely breaks 100 lbs.) I'd just go with the Premiere for longevity sake, break in should be similar for both boots. Going from basically nothing in the Marquis to a much stiffer boot might present you with some issues, but they would likely be similar with either a Debut or a Premiere. If you're going to a proper fitter they should do the heat molding and punching out wherever you need it at no additional cost.

And just another note, she never broke either boot down at all, just sized out of them. We did just order a couple of weeks ago a full custom with the same stiffness as her Premiere since there was no break down. Added a "stronger" tongue because she was flexing it, but it will more or less be a custom leather (stock is microfiber) Premiere.

Good luck.

 

[1111bm]

I can't speak for the OP of course and it might be totally different for him, but I remember when I got into figure skating (or even before that), the first 3-5 months as a beginner I would spend a lot of hours on the ice too. I started taking 1-2 group classes each week and the rest of the time I would spend practising during public sessions, several hours each day (we have a lovely outside rink, so it was nice being outside during winter, get all that fresh air, unless it was rainy and windy ).
But at that stage it's not like you can already skate in a way that's that taxing or demanding on the body. So I don't think it's comparable to someone skating at a higher level. And of course these weren't super focused training sessions either. Once I advanced bit by bit, I would tire more and more easily, and now I could never tolerate the amount of ice time that I did back then.
(not that I advanced that much or anything, but of course there's a difference in the way I execute the same elements now vs. then, like single or double 3 turns f.i., there's more knee action, speed, extended edges, covering more distance...)

So I don't find the amount of time OP spends skating alarming. But maybe he does train very seriously and isn't just hanging out a lot at the rink the way I did.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Again, beginners only need 4-6 hours on the ice tops.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Just need a bit of clarification over what boot I should choose between the Debut and Premiere. I am pretty unaffected by the price difference so it doesn't really play a huge part in my decision making (it is only around 50 pounds difference and I just want a boot that will work for me).

So I understand the risks with over-booting and how it can permanently damage your feet and ankles in different ways to under-booting where there is just lack of support so injuries are more severe and much more likely with more advanced skills. I was wondering what actually causes those injuries directly and what are the signs that something is too stiff.

I obviously wouldn't dream of doing something ridiculous like deciding out of the blue to go from recreational skates to edea piano's etc, which is why I am curious about the suggestion of the Premiere (which I would have assumed would be an over-boot) and want to know what was your logic behind that (I understand you have been an elite and professional skater for years so not doubting you know what you talk about) this is more so just trying to get more knowledgeable myself too .

How substantial should the jump in stiffness feel between the marquis and the debut and then the premiere exactly? is there anything else I should take into account when choosing between the two boots on saturday?

Then also the suggested way to break in both boots so I don't hurt myself or damage the boots? I understand there are articles and videos out there and it is also a good idea to speak to my coach too I was simply wondering what you would say.

I will keep that in mind for the future when I figuratively outgrow these boots or they breakdown before then etc...

However it is good to keep stuff like this in mind as both of them have online fitting services and will more than likely be even better if I went there in person tbh.

Either boot I suggested will work for you (the correct fit will be determined for you with an accredited skate pro that does fittings), which is why I suggested that to you and would never look to overboot someone.

You are a larger and taller man and these boots will be good for you, not overbooting, now had you told me you were a 85 pound young girl at the same stage in learning to skate, I would say no and never suggest these boots. You will feel a small difference at first because you had on boots that were way too soft for you to begin with (marquis), but it won't take you long to get used to them due to them being more for what you need personally (height, weight, etc).

Do not tie them overly tight, do not lace up to very top at first for awhile to get them properly starting to break in. Take breaks from wearing them. Also, your fitter should heat mold and punch them out where they properly need it for you.

Good luck!

 

[Sibelius]

Do not tie them overly tight, do not lace up to very top at first for awhile to get them properly starting to break in.

Yeah, about that, the Premiere (and only the Premiere) has an offset 5 hook arrangement that you'll probably have to experiment with to determine a lacing pattern that suits you to start. It threw me off when my skater wanted that included in her custom boot, I thought she'd move away from it, but it gives her more security. I thought I was done scouring for "particular" 120" laces, but no...

 

[eclipse]

Can't really answer all your questions, but here's our experience. My skater moved from a Jackson Elle (pre Fusion) which, as I recall was a "35" on the Jackson stiffness scale, directly to an original Debut at a "50" then to a Premiere, "65". All seamlessly without any break in or difficulties at all. The Debut and the Premiere are veryclose no matter what the numbers say. So, I guess for someone your size (mine is 13 and barely breaks 100 lbs.) I'd just go with the Premiere for longevity sake, break in should be similar for both boots. Going from basically nothing in the Marquis to a much stiffer boot might present you with some issues, but they would likely be similar with either a Debut or a Premiere. If you're going to a proper fitter they should do the heat molding and punching out wherever you need it at no additional cost.

And just another note, she never broke either boot down at all, just sized out of them. We did just order a couple of weeks ago a full custom with the same stiffness as her Premiere since there was no break down. Added a "stronger" tongue because she was flexing it, but it will more or less be a custom leather (stock is microfiber) Premiere.

Good luck.

This honestly makes complete sense, I will if possible (considering stocking in the UK is awkward and finding a place that sells a premiere and also one that specializes in figure skates) buy the premiere going off of what you and icebunny said.

Thank you very much for explaining your situation, have a good one.

I can't speak for the OP of course and it might be totally different for him, but I remember when I got into figure skating (or even before that), the first 3-5 months as a beginner I would spend a lot of hours on the ice too. I started taking 1-2 group classes each week and the rest of the time I would spend practising during public sessions, several hours each day (we have a lovely outside rink, so it was nice being outside during winter, get all that fresh air, unless it was rainy and windy ).
But at that stage it's not like you can already skate in a way that's that taxing or demanding on the body. So I don't think it's comparable to someone skating at a higher level. And of course these weren't super focused training sessions either. Once I advanced bit by bit, I would tire more and more easily, and now I could never tolerate the amount of ice time that I did back then.
(not that I advanced that much or anything, but of course there's a difference in the way I execute the same elements now vs. then, like single or double 3 turns f.i., there's more knee action, speed, extended edges, covering more distance...)

So I don't find the amount of time OP spends skating alarming. But maybe he does train very seriously and isn't just hanging out a lot at the rink the way I did.

I generally tried to leave the hanging around at the rink either for after I had completely finished everything so off the actual ice, or if I had been doing something particularly taxing and I needed a break so ended up spending the last hour on the ice getting advice off of other people.

However I can understand what you mean as a point, but I was overdoing it if I am being fair.

Again, beginners only need 4-6 hours on the ice tops.

when can you begin increasing it

Either boot I suggested will work for you (the correct fit will be determined for you with an accredited skate pro that does fittings), which is why I suggested you and would never look to overboot someone.

You are a larger and taller man and these boots will be good for you, not overbooting, now had you told me you were a 85 pound young girl at the same stage in learning to skate, I would say no and never suggest these boots. You will feel a small difference at first because you had on boots that were way too soft for you to begin with (marquis), but it won't take you long to get used to them due to them being more for what you need personally (height, weight, etc).

Do not tie them overly tight, do not lace up to very top at first for awhile to get them properly starting to break in. Take breaks from wearing them. Also, your fitter should heat mold and punch them out where they properly need it for you.

Good luck!

Well I knew that you wouldn't try and do something like that it was more so just for my own peace of mind more than anything. I have decided to go with the suggestion from a previous user in this thread and go to everglides to get mine fitted considering his recommendation and their glowing reviews. They have so far taken everything on this thread into account (Gave them some background and some advice from users on here and they said it all made sense).

Okay, that is good to hear, honestly looking forward to having a pair of boots that will properly support me and will last, just hope now it is a quick turnaround for getting everything I need.

Thank you I will take all of that into account and they should be able to manage all of that, honestly really appreciate the time you have put into responding

Yeah, about that, the Premiere (and only the Premiere) has an offset 5 hook arrangement that you'll probably have to experiment with to determine a lacing pattern that suits you to start. It threw me off when my skater wanted that included in her custom boot, I thought she'd move away from it, but it gives her more security. I thought I was done scouring for "particular" 120" laces, but no...

What do you mean by particular laces jfc, that sounds awkward as anything.

 

[Sibelius]

What do you mean by particular laces jfc, that sounds awkward as anything.

Not really awkward, she insists on using 120" thin, synthetic laces instead of the wider cotton that come stock with her Jackson boots, and most others. They are supplied by her fitter who used to own a custom boot factory. She has never been able to keep any other laces tied tight enough.

You will find as you move into the skating world that skaters can be VERY particular about everything. There are only 2 people she will allow to sharpen her blades, her fitter and his son. That's it, and it has to be every 4 weeks, not 5, and that means an hours drive each way to get it done, and yes she can tell the difference.

 

[eclipse]

Not really awkward, she insists on using 120" thin, synthetic laces instead of the wider cotton that come stock with her Jackson boots, and most others. They are supplied by her fitter who used to own a custom boot factory. She has never been able to keep any other laces tied tight enough.

You will find as you move into the skating world that skaters can be VERY particular about everything. There are only 2 people she will allow to sharpen her blades, her fitter and his son. That's it, and it has to be every 4 weeks, not 5, and that means an hours drive each way to get it done, and yes she can tell the difference.

That honestly makes sense I can kind of understand why they would become very particular as it helps with consistency in the long run.

Also just had to endure being ringed out by some of my family because of how expensive the skates are and "You are nowhere near professional you shouldn't even dream of putting that much money in"... Honestly not even surprised.

 

[MCsAngel2]

I just wanted to make sure you realized, as well, that in addition to the stiffer boots being more expensive (Debuts are $360 and Premieres are $420), that they don't come with blades and you have to pay for them separately. I think both Coronation Aces and MK Professionals are about $260.

I commend you for going all in, though. I know taking it up as an adult and having to lay out so much money right off the bat is a little daunting. (Stock sized boots don't fit me, so I have to pay extra for semi custom, even though I'm also a beginner). The things we do for love, right?