Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[nussnacker]

PCS obviously...but seriously, can you imagine what would happen if Plushy tried to tackle the thorny issue of PCS? I know you all think he's an idiot, but even he's not brain-dead enough to try that one.

It was you who brought that up as something that is an „excuse“ this specific time, not Plushenko, so this was addressed to you personally, has nothing to do with Plushenko complaining about „falling on one‘s butt“.

But, forgetting what Plushenko complained about (because he did it so much perhaps), you forgot that he did in fact complain about other skaters’ PCS marks several times this season, notably saying Kamila can’t receive her PCS, and he complained about PCS of other skaters on Russian nationals too.
so... you think he‘s brain dead apparently??? Jesus Christ.

he didn’t complain in this specific case, because even he probably realizes that’s a reach this time.

there's definitely claims all over the place that Sasha is foolish for wanting to do 5 quad programs.

No one would be foolish to skate a program they can skate, especially health-wise. You can’t really expect people to compliment Sasha on deciding to do 4 quads at Rostelecom when she was injured, despite her coaches wisely advising and trying to persuade her against that. It wasn’t a good decision, because now we know that it aggravated her injury, which doesn’t let her jump most of her quads and 3A at all right now.

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609593

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609598

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609619

None of those say her quads are an embarrassment. In fact, vast majority of
people on that thread have complimented Sasha on her quads. Comments about Plushenko aren’t comments about Sasha.
You having to search for that one lonely comment from over half a year ago in fact is a great testament, that vast majority always acknowledges Sasha’s exceptional technical abilities and her quads.

What? Of course they do! You can't make the national team without good results there. Kirill's never had a JGP event and without results in domestic comps he never will. I think he has something really special, it breaks my heart to think he'll never get anywhere.

Silver on Moscow Cup decides nothing, it is a local insignificant competition.
It won’t decide JGP allocations, if you have other information, please provide some source for that.
Russian Cup Final and Junior/Novice Nationals would be more likely used to make that decision.

 

[anonymoose_au]

None of those say her quads are an embarrassment. In fact, vast majority of
people on that thread have complimented Sasha on her quads. Comments about Plushenko aren’t comments about Sasha.
You having to search for that one lonely comment from over half a year ago in fact is a great testament, that vast majority always acknowledge Sasha’s exceptional technical abilities and her quads

Well good I'm glad Sasha is seen as special and amazing because she is

But if she succeeds you know people will always say it's in spite of Plushenko right? He will never ever get any credit.

He will however get all the blame if she fails.

Silver on Moscow Cup decides nothing, it is a local insignificant competition.
It won’t decide JGP allocations, if you have other information, please provide some source for that.
Russian Cup Final and Junior/Novice Nationals would be more likely used to make that decision.

One feeds into the other, you think the judges at the Russian Cup Final or Nats don't look at these domestic competitions? Hell some of the judges there are probably the same ones who go to the big events.

And what do they see? They see Kirill, who can't win over Mark despite Mark's rather glaring technical errors (he got positive GOE on a that popped axel! Never in my life have I seen that!), they see Mark's PCS. Add the rest of the Eteri students who will be at the Cup Final and Junior Nats and Kirill goes right down the rankings. Kirill gets a reputation as a skater who's only worth 69 in PCS, they're not going to bother sending him with that.

Oh well, who cares. He's not one of the "chosen" skaters on this board so who gives a toss.

 

[Lzbee]

At Rostelecom Cup FS Trusova got -5 -5 -4 -5 -3 -4 -5 for her first fall and all -5 for the second fall. It depends on the fall.


It's for tech panel to decide. I gave you the example how Chen with both hands on ice got GOE from -1 to -4 with no deduction.

Anyway, Plushenko lied at least twice in his last interview. There was no any "butt", there was no any "bonus".

I have no horse in this race about the two mens skaters and I haven't seen their programs. But I want to clarify that Sasha's first fall was also on her hands, no butt touching the ice, yet it was still deemed a fall.

I think ISU need to decide what constitutes a fall because it looks like a fall on the hands forwards is counted as a stepout but a fall on the hands backwards is an official fall. It should also be an automatic -5 across the board if it's deemed an official fall, it makes no sense otherwise.

The official ISU definition of a fall is: "a loss of control by a skater with the result that the majority of his/her own body weight is on the ice supported by any other part of the body other than the blades e.g. hand(s), knee(s), back, buttock(s) or any part of the arm."

From that, I'd say all of the examples in this thread should've been called as falls but judges obviously see differently

 

[Amei]

Sure it's not mandatory, yet somehow some skaters who do that get the full -5 and some don't.

And are they seriously saying that falling on your hands is not a fall now? That's BS.

Mark may not have "fallen on his butt", but he almost fell on his face.

The point is...when is a fall not a fall? When the judging panel decides it's not. And once again the decision seems to be tied very closely to who's considered a top skater.

I bet if some no-name skater from Australia did what Mark did it'd be -5 across the board, and probably a 1 point fall deduction as a bonus!

Below is the definition (hyperlinked to the ISU document) of what is a fall. In terms of the fall that wasn't called a fall, there have been 3 skaters that I'm aware of this season: Mark at this event a few days ago, Trusova and Valieva at the second cup stage who have all had similar landings that included significant use of their hands to prevent splatting on the ice. I think all 3 should have been called a fall but none were. My assumption is that the judges didn't rule any of them as falls because the "majority" threshold was not met in their opinion in that it looked more like their weight was evenly distributed between the hands and feet and the benefit of the doubt went to the skaters. I think the ISU should update their definition to include that if a loss of control results in a skater putting both hands on the ice that it's considered a fall, but right now that is not in the definition.

A fall is defined as: “loss of control by a skater with the result that the majority of his/her own body weight is on the ice supported by any other part of the body other than the blades e.g. hand(s), knee(s), back, buttock(s) or any part of the arm.”

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Indeed I thought it was a popped jump with a fall myself!

The thing is it's all well and good for judges and tech panels to give the benefit of the doubt, but I'm concerned that this doesn't extend to everyone the judges judge. Like if judge #5 wants be a harsh marker that's fine if it applies to everyone. But if they only do it to some skaters, but not others it's inherently unfair. Sure Skater #1 might not be "known" for underrotations while Skater #2 is, but that doesn't mean Skater #1 can't ever underrotate and vice versa.

TBH I've been thinking on this and it doesn't apply to this specific competition, but I think if the judges and Tech Panel can't or won't use slo-mos taped by the broadcaster then they shouldn't show us. Because then it just becomes agitating when you see something wrong on the slo-mos but the scores are like "Nothing to see here".

If the judges miss it, why show us and then not expect people to be like "What the-?"

Sorry I should have clarified - that was not a fall (and deserving of a 1 point deduction), but it did deserve all -5’s across the board.

 

[Anoosheh]

except Brian O is a respected coach so mostly got off lightly.

Brian is a respected coach because he behaves like one.
He doesn't accuse judges of bribing and doesn't make Instagram posts complaining about Nathan's scores. He never makes Instagram stories showing off his empire and all those doll houses he has built in that empire.
Because his focus is on teaching and making sure his skaters are improving.

I respected Plushenko as an athlete, and wanted to respect him as a coach but unfortunately he makes it impossible.
He has managed to bully all of those Eteri girls (including Alina and Evgenia) during the past 4 months...

 

[Scott512]

Well I'm pretty sure if I was to name names I'd be in huge trouble, but what about those "Let's rescore the 2006/2010 Olympics" threads? Their very existence suggests that the outcome of those events were incorrect and need to be rescored.

Still never heard any skater get more nasty comments from professional English-speaking commentators on TV than Plushy has. The Canadians on CBC were downright vicious and of course there's Sandra who thought he was absolute trash. Dick claims he was a fan, but never tired of mocking Plushy's skating style like he was some sort of exhibit at a zoo. You don't have to be Ted Barton, but some respect would have been nice.

All in all I just get the overwhelming feeling that so many people want to see Plushy fail. These people probably applauded in glee when he had to withdraw from Sochi and got a good laugh out of the Russian media turning against him and calling him a traitor and national embarrassment.

For example, that Zheleznyakov nutcase basically threatened to beat Plushy up, the response here? A hearty laugh and call to pass the popcorn and televise it! Sure it was a joke, but all jokes contain a nugget of truth. If it had been anyone else in the FS world people would have been horrified. But in this case hey it's only Plushy, maybe Zheleznyakov will hit him so hard it'll break that ridiculous nose.


PCS obviously...but seriously, can you imagine what would happen if Plushy tried to tackle the thorny issue of PCS? I know you all think he's an idiot, but even he's not brain-dead enough to try that one.

What? Of course they do! You can't make the national team without good results there. Kirill's never had a JGP event and without results in domestic comps he never will. I think he has something really special, it breaks my heart to think he'll never get anywhere.

I exaggerated, but there's definitely claims all over the place that Sasha is foolish for wanting to do 5 quad programs and how unfortunate for her that she went to the one idiot coach who would let her. Eteri would never be so stupid!

A two minute search of the Russian Ladies Thread will yield a mountain of comments of just how bad a coach Plushenko is (when he's not accused of being a fake coach of course, never forget he doesn't actually do anything) Here's some choice comments:

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609593

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609598

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609619

Or you can just pop into the Coaching Cauldron for all your Plushenko = Garbage needs!

Honestly I can't even blame him for not respecting the establishment...just this week Tatiana Tarasova said AGAIN that he's a fake coach.

I don't know about you, but I can tell you how I'd talk about the people who say that sort of BS about me. I'd make Plushy look like a paragon of restraint!

PS. For your viewing pleasure here's Sandra Bezic's (who's comments were beamed across the globe) 4.5 minute TED Talk on how Plushenko tried to single handedly destroy the great sport of figure skating

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/media/evgeni-plushenko-vancouver-olympics-2010-fs-nbc-commentary.11563/

Includes all the most common and well-loved complaints! The arm movements! The crappy choreography! Just a jumping machine! Didn't even bother to try! Arrogant! Arrange a drinking game, it's fun for the whole family.

I don't even know where to start.

TAT? Sorry to see she's involved with something like this. She would not have said that if she coached Plushenko.

Well I'm pretty sure if I was to name names I'd be in huge trouble, but what about those "Let's rescore the 2006/2010 Olympics" threads? Their very existence suggests that the outcome of those events were incorrect and need to be rescored.

Still never heard any skater get more nasty comments from professional English-speaking commentators on TV than Plushy has. The Canadians on CBC were downright vicious and of course there's Sandra who thought he was absolute trash. Dick claims he was a fan, but never tired of mocking Plushy's skating style like he was some sort of exhibit at a zoo. You don't have to be Ted Barton, but some respect would have been nice.

All in all I just get the overwhelming feeling that so many people want to see Plushy fail. These people probably applauded in glee when he had to withdraw from Sochi and got a good laugh out of the Russian media turning against him and calling him a traitor and national embarrassment.

For example, that Zheleznyakov nutcase basically threatened to beat Plushy up, the response here? A hearty laugh and call to pass the popcorn and televise it! Sure it was a joke, but all jokes contain a nugget of truth. If it had been anyone else in the FS world people would have been horrified. But in this case hey it's only Plushy, maybe Zheleznyakov will hit him so hard it'll break that ridiculous nose.


PCS obviously...but seriously, can you imagine what would happen if Plushy tried to tackle the thorny issue of PCS? I know you all think he's an idiot, but even he's not brain-dead enough to try that one.

What? Of course they do! You can't make the national team without good results there. Kirill's never had a JGP event and without results in domestic comps he never will. I think he has something really special, it breaks my heart to think he'll never get anywhere.

I exaggerated, but there's definitely claims all over the place that Sasha is foolish for wanting to do 5 quad programs and how unfortunate for her that she went to the one idiot coach who would let her. Eteri would never be so stupid!

A two minute search of the Russian Ladies Thread will yield a mountain of comments of just how bad a coach Plushenko is (when he's not accused of being a fake coach of course, never forget he doesn't actually do anything) Here's some choice comments:

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609593

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609598

Post in thread '2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating' https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2020-21-russian-ladies-figure-skating.85832/post-2609619

Or you can just pop into the Coaching Cauldron for all your Plushenko = Garbage needs!

Honestly I can't even blame him for not respecting the establishment...just this week Tatiana Tarasova said AGAIN that he's a fake coach.

I don't know about you, but I can tell you how I'd talk about the people who say that sort of BS about me. I'd make Plushy look like a paragon of restraint!

PS. For your viewing pleasure here's Sandra Bezic's (who's comments were beamed across the globe) 4.5 minute TED Talk on how Plushenko tried to single handedly destroy the great sport of figure skating

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/media/evgeni-plushenko-vancouver-olympics-2010-fs-nbc-commentary.11563/

Includes all the most common and well-loved complaints! The arm movements! The crappy choreography! Just a jumping machine! Didn't even bother to try! Arrogant! Arrange a drinking game, it's fun for the whole family.

2006 was never in doubt. 2010 was a very close competition I throw it plus you should of won another gold but that's one of those competitions that could go either way.

I don't know what TAT was thinking. She didn't coach Plushy. She coached is arch rival.. She's been full of hot air in recent years.

I tried to watch the video and listen to Sandra Bezic but it said video not availabl. I never liked her work is an analyst for she was horrible and I never knew how she even got such a position. I also think her disdain Plushenko was due to the Canadian Russian
Rivalry and the controversy from the Olympic pairs in 2002. Canada has never produced a figure skater anywhere close to Evgeni Plushenko.

I really got disgusted with NBC at the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City when they NBC broadcast team when absolutely stupid crazy over the controversy between the Russian and Canadian pairs teams. I never liked them ask you that. I do like Terry Gannon Tara Lapinski and Johnny Weir. No russo phobia there.

Plushy is frustrating people as a coach because of his complaints. but it has nothing to do with how truly great a was as a skater. He is one of the 2 or 3 greatest of all time without a question.

What happened to him in Sochi when the media turned on him was a disgrace. It was not his fault that Russia could not produce and elite male figure skater since Plushy was in his prime.

As for the guys competitions that was controversial it was obviously by all accounts a very close competition and those can go either way.

 

[rollerblade]

Brian is a respected coach because he behaves like one.
He doesn't accuse judges of bribing and doesn't make Instagram posts complaining about Nathan's scores. He never makes Instagram stories showing off his empire and all those doll houses he has built in that empire.
Because his focus is on teaching and making sure his skaters are improving.

Apart from the brief tiff he had with Yuna's mother-manager. But, bygones.

 

[Anoosheh]

Canada has never produced a figure skater anywhere close to Evgeni Plushenko.

Yes it has! Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir!

Canada also played a huge role in the success of Yuna and Yuzuru... So yea Canada has actually "produced" skaters of his caliber.

 

[Alex65]

It's funny to see how the views of the same people change depending on the agenda. When Sasha started to lag behind Anna in the assessment of the PCS last season, everyone here was unanimously saying that Sasha was falling on the ice, she lacked purity and stability. And now I see a statement here that, all other things being equal, pure skate is not enough to win)). LOL. That the TT skater, who receives huge PCS for dirty hire, gets it all by right. TT skaters are a priori the best and therefore they get huge points for everything. Or, after all, the point is that they beat other skaters, even when they didn't deserve it, thanks to the support of the judges. And no one should complain about it. Moreover, Plushenko, who himself received support in his career. This is absurd. Whatever arguments the TT defenders bring here, this situation will not cease to be absurd. If the strong loses to the weak, if an equal opponent loses to an equal with a huge advantage, this is not a sport.

 

[nussnacker]

TAT? Sorry to see she's involved with something like this. She would not have said that if she coached Plushenko.

For the record, TAT never said he’s a fake coach, another one of those „exaggerations“ I guess.
She merely said she’s tired of all that drama, and it would be better if they worked instead of that.

 

[nussnacker]

When Sasha started to lag behind Anna in the assessment of the PCS last season, everyone here was unanimously saying that Sasha was falling on the ice, she lacked purity and stability.

Interesting that you say that „everyone“ said that. I’m sure not everyone did, and perhaps they meant being clean while also having stronger tes, not just being clean?

being clean with a comparable tech content, when you have a pcs gap with your competition, won’t be enough to win, and I think Sasha needs a stronger tech content than her competition to win over them.

I went back to look what I wrote in 2019 about Sasha doing 4 quads against Aliona’s 3*3A, and as you can see back then I also wrote that she needs a stronger tech than her competition (obviously implying she lands it all) in order to win over them.

„She does kinda need it.
Here’s why I think...
She needs 1 quad for every 3A of her competitors, and since Aliona is doing 3, Sasha would need at least 3 quads just to make things even, since Aliona will have higher pcs.
In order to confidently go ahead, she would need another quad“

as you can see, I always was of an opinion that being clean with 3 quads would barely make her catch up with someone like Aliona, who’s a stronger PCS skater, despite Aliona having a much weaker tes content, with 3*3A and no Lz-Lo.

 

[anonymoose_au]

For the record, TAT never said he’s a fake coach, another one of those „exaggerations“ I guess.
She merely said she’s tired of all that drama, and it would be better if they worked instead of that.

Татьяна Тарасова о коттеджах для Трусовой и Косторной: «Это здорово и удобно для работы! Какой это перебор?»

Заслуженный тренер СССР Татьяна Тарасова поделилась мнением о школе двукратного олимпийского чемпиона Евгения Плющенко.

m.sports.ru

"We don't know yet what kind of coach Plushenko will be like. He's not a coach yet, ”Tarasova said.

Don't know what he's been doing for the past 3 years, sweet F all I guess.

 

[nussnacker]

One feeds into the other, you think the judges at the Russian Cup Final or Nats don't look at these domestic competitions? Hell some of the judges there are probably the same ones who go to the big events.

You can just say there’s no proof of what you said, that would’ve been enough.
one doesn’t feed into another, there’s always a case when a skater scored less on JGP/Cup stages, but did better at Junior Nationals, case in point Ksenia Sinitsina in her first junior season against Nastia Tarakanova. Did worse in the first half of the season, won over Nastia in the second part. That’s not a singular example either.

Novice skaters never earn a „reputation“ of being a certain level PCS skaters, because their scores always change as they grow, from year to year. If Sarnovsky produces a level of skating and performance of Kutovoi, he would win over Lukin. Can he do that at nationals is another question.

 

[Alex65]

Interesting that you say that „everyone“ said that. I’m sure not everyone did, and perhaps they meant being clean while also having stronger tes, not just being clean?

being clean with a comparable tech content, when you have a pcs gap with your competition, won’t be enough to win, and I think Sasha needs a stronger tech content than her competition to win over them.

I went back to look what I wrote in 2019 about Sasha doing 4 quads against Aliona’s 3*3A, and as you can see back then I also wrote that she needs a stronger tech than her competition (obviously implying she lands it all) in order to win over them.

„She does kinda need it.
Here’s why I think...
She needs 1 quad for every 3A of her competitors, and since Aliona is doing 3, Sasha would need at least 3 quads just to make things even, since Aliona will have higher pcs.
In order to confidently go ahead, she would need another quad“

as you can see, I always was of an opinion that being clean with 3 quads would barely make her catch up with someone like Aliona, who’s a stronger PCS skater, despite Aliona having a much weaker tes content, with 3*3A and no Lz-Lo.

Note. I was talking about Sasha and Anna. Not about Sasha and Alena. With Alena, it's a completely different story. No one in their right mind would dispute the superiority of Alena in the РCS over Anna and Sasha.

 

[nussnacker]

Note. I was talking about Sasha and Anna. Not about Sasha and Alena. With Alena, it's a completely different story. No one in their right mind would dispute the superiority of Alena in the РCS over Anna and Sasha.

Anna also historically scored higher in PCS than Sasha, even in juniors, rightfully so. She’s stronger than Sasha in several areas, but weaker than Aliona.
Even in 2019-20 season, with the same content as Sasha, Anna would score 4-5 points higher in SP, and they were in the same team that year, as you remember.

At that point in 2019 there was no point of comparing the two, because Anna was attempting 2 quads, and Sasha was attempting 4 quads. With 4 quads Sasha would win over Anna with 2 quads, and close the pcs gap easily.
At these nationals Anna had a stronger TES content in both programs, so of course she would win over clean Sasha, and the same would’ve happened internationally in 2019-20 season, have they both had the same content as at Nationals.

 

[anonymoose_au]

If Sarnovsky produces a level of skating and performance of Kutovoi, he would win over Lukin.

Oh and here I was thinking Kirill had dynamic and exciting programs, fancy me thinking I could have an opinion!

I'm so sorry I won't bother you again.

 

[nussnacker]

Oh and here I was thinking Kirill had dynamic and exciting programs, fancy me thinking I could have an opinion!

I'm so sorry I won't bother you again.

Did I ever say you can’t have an opinion? Everyone can have an opinion, doesn’t necessarily mean all judges agree with that opinion.
and Kutovoi is indeed a very strong and gifted PCS skater, with strong SS and top notch attention to detail, a very musical skater too. Kirill is also talented, but is still lacking in that area comparatively, and has a room for growth (in my humble opinion).
He’s got potential and with work and time, he‘ll be able to overtake both Lukin and Kutovoi. Give it time, I‘d say.

 

[Alex65]

Anna also historically scored higher in PCS than Sasha, even in juniors, rightfully so.

It is not true.

She’s stronger than Sasha in several areas,

This is your subjective opinion. Sasha is stronger than Anna in several other parameters of the PCS.

but weaker than Aliona.
Even in 2019-20 season, with the same content as Sasha, Anna would score 4-5 points higher in SP, and they were in the same team that year, as you remember.

At that point in 2019 there was no point of comparing the two, because Anna was attempting 2 quads, and Sasha was attempting 4 quads. With 4 quads Sasha would win over Anna with 2 quads, and close the pcs gap easily.
At these nationals Anna had a stronger TES content in both programs, so of course she would win over clean Sasha, and the same would’ve happened internationally in 2019-20 season, have they both had the same content as at Nationals.

In general, they have almost equal BV, the difference in TES is unsportsmanlike in RusNats. This should not be used as an argument.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Did I ever say you can’t have an opinion?

Maybe not but clearly my opinion is always wrong, I thought Kirill skated better than Mark, I thought he'd done enough to win, but clearly I'm a bloody idiot.

Why was this thread even created? It's a complete waste of space.

Here's a handy guide to decide if a thread like this is needed

Did someone give an opinion on figure skating?
|
Was that someone Plushenko?
|
If yes the opinion is automatically wrong, useless, idiotic
|
No need to make a thread as the above is the answer to any and all comments by figure skating's biggest fraud.
|
Have a nice day