Jump Errors on Lutz and Flip

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Okay, hear me out.

We all know and are tired of the "full blade take offs", yes. But I'm curious about how the people on this forum would call these two jumps:

Maya Kromykh 3F: https://youtu.be/IWpe9qxSHjU?t=294
Daniel Grassl 4Lz: https://youtu.be/obe_WTRy_aU?t=9557

The skid is actually pretty clear on Kromykh's - she skids when forward on that 3F. With Grassl, I remember there was a GIF last season, but I don't think I can trace it anymore, but even in this video I think it's clear that he's skidding on the picking foot on take off. I am not one to say that "full blade take offs" are "loop jumps", but what would you call them?

Or is this an example of "forward take off" on a jump that is supposed to take off backwards? It's different from when the skating foot turns forward on take off though.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2017
Okay, hear me out.

We all know and are tired of the "full blade take offs", yes. But I'm curious about how the people on this forum would call these two jumps:

Maya Kromykh 3F: https://youtu.be/IWpe9qxSHjU?t=294
Daniel Grassl 4Lz: https://youtu.be/obe_WTRy_aU?t=9557

The skid is actually pretty clear on Kromykh's - she skids when forward on that 3F. With Grassl, I remember there was a GIF last season, but I don't think I can trace it anymore, but even in this video I think it's clear that he's skidding on the picking foot on take off. I am not one to say that "full blade take offs" are "loop jumps", but what would you call them?

Or is this an example of "forward take off" on a jump that is supposed to take off backwards? It's different from when the skating foot turns forward on take off though.
It seems that many skaters cannot jump with minimal pre-rotation. Their Lz and F BV should go down.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Okay, hear me out.

We all know and are tired of the "full blade take offs", yes. But I'm curious about how the people on this forum would call these two jumps:

Maya Kromykh 3F: https://youtu.be/IWpe9qxSHjU?t=294
Daniel Grassl 4Lz: https://youtu.be/obe_WTRy_aU?t=9557

The skid is actually pretty clear on Kromykh's - she skids when forward on that 3F. With Grassl, I remember there was a GIF last season, but I don't think I can trace it anymore, but even in this video I think it's clear that he's skidding on the picking foot on take off. I am not one to say that "full blade take offs" are "loop jumps", but what would you call them?

Or is this an example of "forward take off" on a jump that is supposed to take off backwards? It's different from when the skating foot turns forward on take off though.
I don't think his 4Lz would ever deserve positive GOE even if people don't agree with prerotation and full blade characteristics. Heavy lean forwards on take off and landing, hunched posture and barely rotated.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
I don't think his 4Lz would ever deserve positive GOE even if people don't agree with prerotation and full blade characteristics. Heavy lean forwards on take off and landing, hunched posture and barely rotated.
But what would you call a flip that skids forward on the picking foot like that? It literally has edge jump mechanics to an extent... Usually a "full blade" jump uses more of the blade to pick in, but it still picks in and vaults.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
But what would you call a flip that skids forward on the picking foot like that? It literally has edge jump mechanics to an extent... Usually a "full blade" jump uses more of the blade to pick in, but it still picks in and vaults.
Honestly, its no easier than to do a full blade jump, so whatever BV should be given to FB jumps then negative GOE for looking ugly.

Or if FB jumps have same BV as "textbook " jumps (like now), then just negative GOE generally.

To me, if I didn't see the three turn it would look similar to a bad technqiue used on a triple loop. It's honestly very weird, and unusual. Normally I use Aliev and Uno as examples of very bad full blade, but they stay over the right side when pivoting, here it's pivoting but staying towards left side and traveling slightly on ice as a result. (I think).
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
No offense to Grassl, but I can't tell his quads apart. They all look like a loop to me. :shrug:
Loop was his first triple (and first quad in practice I think). He just transferred the same technique between the jumps (A bit like how I can't tell Morisi Kvitelashvilli's salchow and toe apart in real time. (Especially at Universiade 2019 FP)
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
here it's pivoting but staying towards left side and
I'm really stunned Kromykh even was able to vault like that, let alone that she landed.

Grassl's 4F (the next jump in the replay I linked) is much worse on the "skidding" part compared to his 4Lz.
 

NanaPat

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Canada
is there really not an ignore thread option yet?
If you ignore the OP, the threads they started won't appear in NEW POSTS. Their other posts will be hidden, but you can click on them to read them.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
OTOH, I hope we can go back to just discussing the topic, instead of making shady, pointless comments, that you didn't need to make by specifically clicking on the thread of course.

Not that it would be a big loss to be ignored by the people who tend to do that.
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
I'm really stunned Kromykh even was able to vault like that, let alone that she landed.

Grassl's 4F (the next jump in the replay I linked) is much worse on the "skidding" part compared to his 4Lz.
don't come for ma gurl Maiia, she's doing her best, okurr? :cry: 😭

On a serious note, she surely doesn't have great technique, but she's also tall as hell, so that surely isn't making her life any easier. :rolleyes:
The problem that I see is how she twerks her upper body, it's a bad habit which I think leads to having that skid.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
I'm really stunned Kromykh even was able to vault like that, let alone that she landed.

Grassl's 4F (the next jump in the replay I linked) is much worse on the "skidding" part compared to his 4Lz.
Id say grassl has a bad edge on his flip and Lutz and his bodyweight is similar with both. It could also be that the toe hammer is just so insanely heavy that the blade struggles to leave the ice once the skater goes to forwards. (Or has a long journey coming out the hole whilst the skater is traveling forwards).
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
is there really not an ignore thread option yet?
If you ignore the OP, the threads they started won't appear in NEW POSTS. Their other posts will be hidden, but you can click on them to read them.

I do not want to derail this thread further, but "Ignore Thread" is available as part of the premium package membership

 

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
Still not impossible (Brian Joubert)
Also see the current crop of Canadian men (excluding Keegan) and for women, Carolina Kostner.
I don't think height can be an excuse for poor picking technique, only perhaps for underrotation problems (e.g. Sotskova and Tsurskaya had good toe jump takeoffs but were plagued with URs towards the end of their careers).

Plus, I could buy the argument that Khromykh's *sudden increase in height* may have caused coordination problems, but not her absolute height in itself. In Russian Cup stage 4, when you watch the group warmups Khromykh is not much taller than the others. Konstantinova is taller (although obviously not jumping great at the moment). Nugumanova and even Trusova aren't much shorter than Khromykh.

See the last warmup group standing together at the boards here (at 3:25:58): https://youtu.be/zOSp4T-hi3o?t=12358
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Still not impossible (Brian Joubert)
It might not be "impossible", but is it the general case or no?

Also see the current crop of Canadian men (excluding Keegan) and for women, Carolina Kostner.
Is the current crop of Canadian men excluding Keegan and Carolina Kostner an exception to the rule or not? And they aren't consistent at all.

Conrad Orzel has bad picking technique too. And Joseph Phan, and Nam Nguyen.
 
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Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
It might not be "impossible", but is it the general case or no?


Is the current crop of Canadian men excluding Keegan and Carolina Kostner an exception to the rule or not? And they aren't consistent at all.

Conrad Orzel has bad picking technique too. And Joseph Phan, and Nam Nguyen.
Not sure about kolyadafan, but for my part I think that it is the general case that tall skaters find it harder to jump because their height/added limb length can cause difficulty rotating, but not because it causes bad picking technique.

I was thinking specifically of Sadovsky and Nguyen, whose lack of consistency seems to be due more to competition nerves and/or stamina (haven't watched enough of Phan or Orzel). Although their toe jumps aren't the greatest (both prefer 4S to 4T), they don't have a systemic floop/loopz problem of the sort you're referring to in the OP. They may sporadically mis-pick, but if that happens they tend to pop or fall instead of miraculously staying on their feet and camouflaging the jump as a good one. (They also sometimes pop or fall for no apparent reason but that's a different kettle of fish...) So they don't invite the debate of rewarding positive GOE for a jump with weird takeoff mechanics that is landed solidly.

In the same vein, even though Kostner started popping a lot in her later career, she didn't have a messy picking technique. So one can't argue that Khromykh or Grassl are physically predisposed to jump the way they do because of physical stature (especially when Uno has similar problem at 1.58 metres tall). Hope I've explained my viewpoint clearly now.
 
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