Jumps: long set up vs. transitions

lappo

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I have seen this topic discussed here and there so I thought it would be better to make a thread. Do you prefer jumps with a long set up or a transition into a jump? Personally, I find many programs of the past not very pleasing because of the very long set up into the jump, IMO it can make the program look very empty. I definitely prefer to see more action.
What are your thoughts?
 

Idiote

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To me it depends on the jump. For example I really like Trusova's 4Lz set up, because it creates a lot of tension and suspense. A long set up into a 3A is nice too, even though Alena Kostornaia's entry is hard to match.

But for "simpler" (or more common) triple jumps, though-outs transitions, complicated entries or exits can really add up to the choreography of the program, and contribute to make a jump feel like a real part of the choreo. As I'm more of a dancer (never skated in my life, at least not for more than 30 seconds because kissing the ice hello) I really appreciate the effort to not only add cool and difficult transitions in and out of the jumps, but to really incorporate these transitions within the choreography, matching the music and lyrics. For example the exit Rika Kihira does after her last 3Sal in her Beautiful Storm FS :)
 

gkelly

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I always prefer programs that are full of interesting skating content, not just simple skating to set up jumps and to get from one end of the ice to the other.

However, I can make an exception for one or two of the skater's most difficult jumps or combinations in the program, which might need more speed and concentration. As Idiote says, that can create aesthetically satisfying suspense as well. But not if it's every jump pass.
 

surimi

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Same opinion as the posters above. I don't mind set ups before quads and 3A. But it has to be aesthetic. Hunched and super slow setups are just ugly and I don't like them.
 

YuBluByMe

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I have seen this topic discussed here and there so I thought it would be better to make a thread. Do you prefer jumps with a long set up or a transition into a jump?
What are your thoughts?

Depends on the skater, jump, and execution. For instance, the long set-ups work for Boyang Jin. In last season’s free skate - Cup of China is the best example - he skates around the rink for awhile, setting up his 4Lz. But I’m not thinking about the set-up. I’m waiting in anticipation, wondering if he’s going to land it or not. The music is but a whisper and it starts right when he lands the jump. Good stuff. He doesn’t need transitions.

But transitions should enhance a jump, not degrade it. Much too often I hear (or read) nonsense like “the entry and exit is incredibly difficult...that’s why the jump isnt as high. Or the landing isn’t smooth. Or the axis is off. Or -“

That’s hogwash. A difficult transition doesn’t excuse poor execution. The transition should be ditched if the beauty of the jump cannot be maintained. My favorite transitions are those that melt into the choreography. Kihira is a notable example as is Aymoz.
 

Skatesocs

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For instance, the long set-ups work for Boyang Jin. In last season’s free skate - Cup of China is the best example - he skates around the rink for awhile, setting up his 4Lz. But I’m not thinking about the set-up. I’m waiting in anticipation, wondering if he’s going to land it or not. The music is but a whisper and it starts right when he lands the jump. Good stuff. He doesn’t need transitions.
It was a chilling opening!
 

readernick

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Depends on the skater, jump, and execution. For instance, the long set-ups work for Boyang Jin. In last season’s free skate - Cup of China is the best example - he skates around the rink for awhile, setting up his 4Lz. But I’m not thinking about the set-up. I’m waiting in anticipation, wondering if he’s going to land it or not. The music is but a whisper and it starts right when he lands the jump. Good stuff. He doesn’t need transitions.

But transitions should enhance a jump, not degrade it. Much too often I hear (or read) nonsense like “the entry and exit is incredibly difficult...that’s why the jump isnt as high. Or the landing isn’t smooth. Or the axis is off. Or -“

That’s hogwash. A difficult transition doesn’t excuse poor execution. The transition should be ditched if the beauty of the jump cannot be maintained. My favorite transitions are those that melt into the choreography. Kihira is a notable example as is Aymoz.


I basically agree. I can't say that I feel so inspired by Boyang Jin, because the SS aren't good enough to just make "skating around the rink" that interesting but he is one of those skaters who can really make a long entrance work because their jumps are just so amazing. Carolina Kostner's lutz (when landed) was that way, Tuk's lutz. Kolyada could just skate and then land a beautiful quad and it would be amazing. I believe Mishin once said that transitions are just for disguising bad jumps, and that is often the case.

Kihira really is a great example of someone whose transitions succeed in making the jumps themselves part of the choreography. Her beautiful storm FS was a perfect example of this from the first jump to the last. Aymoz also (although the quality of his jumps is rather lacking at times) makes sure is transitions have meaning. And, Hanyu makes the transitions and jumps themselves an integral part of the choreography. Also, someone who doesn't get a love on this forum, Nancy Kerrigan had really amazing transitions into some of her jumps (and long entrances to others) and the jumps themselves were also generally perfectly executed.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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Very rarely is a long set up better than a quick entry out of steps but every so often it is. Mostly a long set up is just that....long. Meh :yawn:

It had better match the music !!!
 

Skatesocs

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Very rarely is a long set up better than a quick entry out of steps but every so often it is. Mostly a long set up is just that....long. Meh :yawn:

Well given your YuLip avatar, I have no option but to interpret this as being an attack on Yuna Kim.:furious:
 

karne

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I think there's a very broad spectrum between stalking jumps and overloading with transitions to the point that the jump itself becomes questionable.

One of the things I loved best about Joshua Farris' jumps was that he let the quality of the jump speak for itself. He had gorgeous textbook jumps with not lengthy setups and didn't go crazy with transitions. The result was effortless, clean jumps with few question marks.
 

Happy Skates

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I mean I always prefer transitions because they are impressive and make it less boring usually. Especially if they match the music or make it look like the jump is coming out of nowhere and fit seamlessly into the program. That being said I agree with others that long set ups for quads and 3A are definitely excusable, and can even make for drama at the beginning of a program if you are watching live.
 

Harriet

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For me it depends on the music. If the music just before the jump is quiet or a slow build, then a long set-up will probably match it better and create a more effective moment. If it's a ripple of notes or drumroll or something quick, then transitions with a quicker entry would match it better and be more effective. The problem comes when there's a mismatch between choreography and music.
 

macy

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i think there is a difference between a long setup and telegraphing. i would not call Sasha's lutz setup telegraphing because there are transitions into it and there is never much of a pause between movements. it's similar to Aliona's 3A setup, it takes most of the rink but there are no long pauses or "staring down" the jump, where this is basically what Liza does with her 3A. you can tell the jump is coming even from the crossovers going into it, then she does a veeerrryyyyy long edge (no transitions) for like half a circle. the actual preparation for the jump is much longer than just the edge before she steps into it.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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It was a chilling opening!
I had to go back to see it - WOW!

I agree that it really depends on the jump. Kostner's long running edge into her lutz is beautiful. I don't like the 1980s/1990s pumping around the ice into a jump. That's too much telegraphing (like Liza's 3A or Mirai's from the Olympics). I get that it's a comfort thing especially for a big ticket element but it diminishes the program.

I personally prefer transitions before jumps because it sets that skater apart and makes programs look less homogenous. But not so many that it looks "busy" - there's a balance. It really only needs to be 1-3 movements leading into it (ideally 1 most of the the time, like a bracket or counter). More steps are okay, but if they are added they should match the music.
 

zounger

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As far as the long preparation is fulfilling the artistic image of the program it's fine for me, if the jump itself is done with ease.
 

Baron Vladimir

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Long entrance is fine for me, long preparation is not. Caro's lutz is more often a long preparation than the long entrance/glide, and you can conclude that by looking at her gestures before the jump - posture is changed, hands are going down, she is looking behind her back before the jump... If figure skating is a jump competition that would be fine, but in the context of performing one whole skating programme, is not.
 
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zounger

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Long entrance is fine for me, long preparation is not. Caro's lutz is more often a long preparation than the long entrance, and you can conclude that by looking at her gestures, posture is changed, hands are down, she is looking behind her back before the jump... If figure skating is a jump competition that would be fine, but in in the context of performing one skating programme, is not.
Yes, long entrance is more correct of what I meant too.
 

TontoK

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I don't know if I'd call it "long" but I prefer at least some sort of outside edge ride preceding a lutz jump. I think the jump looks more pure than the miniscule short edges we see in lutzes on a straight line.
 

yume

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I prefer transitions. Most of the time. Before triples. The programs looks less empty and the skater doesn't just go from jump to jump. When there is 5-6 crossovers then a long entrance into lutz it's boring. The entry of Osokina's solo lutz is cool. You don't see the jump coming.
Kostornaya's old entry too. But it would have been better with a true lutz.
 
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