Ladies and the quad

SkateSkates

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I fear that Trusova will make ISU raise the PCS.

ISU should have raised the PCS to equal men’s last season once they shortened the men’s LP and took out an element. Now the requirements are exactly the same in the LP, so the PCS multiplier should be the same. Ladies should also be allowed to do quads in the SP, and the PCS multiplier should be the same as the men too. No need for archaic separate requirements and scaling of PCS anymore to artificially deflate ladies scores less than the men.
 

yume

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Just that in ladies we will see things like 65 TES - 95 PCS. If we find abnormal the fact that TES is much higher than PCS for some skaters. This is abnormal too.
 

Elucidus

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Nepela Memorial 2019

Sasha Trusova landed 4Lz, 4T+3T and 4T, all three with GOE+ across the table. Ironically she failed to deliver the same 3Lz3Lo (doubling 2Lo and stepping over, no crash, with GOE-).

4Lz received 14.72 COP score.

Some may update Wikipedia again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY1ZjNziNTs
Here is Trusova's FP at Nepela Trophy :biggrin:
Btw, she humiliated Russian men as well - with 98+ TES :drama: They never got this many points :unsure::slink::laugh:
 

SkateSkates

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Just that in ladies we will see things like 65 TES - 95 PCS. If we find abnormal the fact that TES is much higher than PCS for some skaters. This is abnormal too.

I don’t think we would see anything that dramatic unless Kostner comes back. If Alina, the highest PCS scorer, would get 82 TES + 90 PCS I think this is fair, no? If her strength is in PCS she should be able to use the system this way to her advantage the same way Jason brown can IMO.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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If Alina, the highest PCS scorer, would get 82 TES + 90 PCS I think this is fair, no? If her strength is in PCS she should be able to use the system this way to her advantage the same way Jason brown can IMO.

Her advantage is mostly the result of complex choreography and transitions between the elements. The new Russian seniors are catching up with her fast in that regard; I don't see Alina having a huge PCS edge over AT, AS, or AK for long.
 

Mrs. P

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I don’t think we would see anything that dramatic unless Kostner comes back. If Alina, the highest PCS scorer, would get 82 TES + 90 PCS I think this is fair, no? If her strength is in PCS she should be able to use the system this way to her advantage the same way Jason brown can IMO.

Having seems Alina and the 3A’s live, Alina really doesn’t have an advantage on the PCS side. The one That does is Alena K. Alina’s advantage before was never the PCS it was that she backloaded programs and was relatively consistent. It’s not really like Jason who truly can spit out points for those non jump/PCS points and has a clear distinction in those areas (and honestly it only takes him so far anyway.)

Sasha’s consistency on the quads is unreal. Of course whether she can keep them in the long run is a question, but at this point they are fine for now.
 
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SkateSkates

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Having seems Alina and the 3A’s live, Alina really doesn’t have an advantage on the PCS side. The one That does is Alena K. Alina’s advantage before was never the PCS it was that she backloaded programs and was relatively consistent. It’s not really like Jason who truly can spit out points for those non jump/PCS points and has a clear distinction in those areas (and honestly it only takes him so far anyway.)

Sasha’s consistency on the quads is unreal. Of course whether she can keep them in the long run is a question, but at this point they are fine for now.

I was referring to scores Alina has received in the past, not my personal opinion on who should be getting the highest PCS. I am a huge Aliona fan and think she deserves the highest PCS of all ladies skaters today (Satoko is up there for me as well, Kaori last season very high too but this year not so sure). I would love for Aliona’s excellent qualities to be able to be reflected in a larger PCS scoring gap vs her competitors but unless the PCS factoring is changed it can’t.
 

Mrs. P

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I was referring to scores Alina has received in the past, not my personal opinion on who should be getting the highest PCS. I am a huge Aliona fan and think she deserves the highest PCS of all ladies skaters today (Satoko is up there for me as well, Kaori last season very high too but this year not so sure). I would love for Aliona’s excellent qualities to be able to be reflected in a larger PCS scoring gap vs her competitors but unless the PCS factoring is changed it can’t.

Fair enough, but I think Alina primarily got that PCS because she did have the big TES and consistency. Aliona (and Jason on the men’s side) are a handful of skaters who get good PCS inspite is what they do on the TES side. I think Ailona’s PCS should be higher but the fact is she’ll likely keep that PCS (or even see it increase) while Alina probably won’t maintain that gap because Sasha is the one pushing the TES now.

I do agree that at this point unless there’s factoring Aliona isn’t gonna to make up the gap even with good PCs.
 
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icybear

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I dont think that pcs should have to change just because of the rise of tes. Quads are like a poker game. You put in big, you win big but you can also lose big as we saw in jgpf last year. As long as the judges score the pcs not in relative to tes (which I know they wont) then I dont see why quad ladies dont deserve these uneven wins.
 

SkateSkates

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I dont think that pcs should have to change just because of the rise of tes. Quads are like a poker game. You put in big, you win big but you can also lose big as we saw in jgpf last year. As long as the judges score the pcs not in relative to tes (which I know they wont) then I dont see why quad ladies dont deserve these uneven wins.

I don’t think it should change because of the rise of TES. I think it should change to be equal to the men’s. If the required elements in the LP are exactly the same, then the PCS should be exactly the same. Now that the men no longer have an extra :30 and jumping pass, it should be equal. Otherwise this is sexism.
 

yume

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I don’t think we would see anything that dramatic unless Kostner comes back. If Alina, the highest PCS scorer, would get 82 TES + 90 PCS I think this is fair, no? If her strength is in PCS she should be able to use the system this way to her advantage the same way Jason brown can IMO.

Yes 82TES - 90PCS isn't a big gap. But kostner will come back with that raise. She needs only 4 triples to get 65 TES. And will watch her get 160 with 4 triples.

Ladies with quads/3As have a very high potential scoring https://mobile.twitter.com/LazyLys/status/1175450399744155649
Not that i agree with those numbers and those senior men were not clean (otherwise they would have 110-120+), but still.
 

lzxnl

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Who else put 36,92 + 33,98 for SP with 1A? Has this ever happened before? Do you really think the LP was 152.59? The judges did everything they could for Japan.

Rika's GPF and WTT SPs both hit around 82. Take away the value of a 3A and you're left with 72, so unless you're asking to tie in PCS with technical elements, which people are still upset about, it's not actually that

Meanwhile not calling underrotations or wrong edges despite them clearly being there, or giving exceptionally generous PCS marks to certain skaters, even more so than others, raises eyebrows.

Do I think Rika's FS was worth 153? Yes, probably, certainly in comparison to some others. You must remember that a fall on a 3A is still worth 3 points, which is only marginally less than the value of a good 2A. Rika's FS otherwise at Worlds was fine technically and artistically. She still had a landed 3A+3T.

Do I think any of Zagitova's FS's were worth 156+? No. Given how forced her jumps were, how frantic the entire program was, and how she really didn't have any special technical content to go above 80 TES (3Lz-3Lo is currently not even scored that well). So, given how the scoring at Worlds worked, I don't agree with your examples. But that's your opinion.
 

bubblecherry

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Yes 82TES - 90PCS isn't a big gap. But kostner will come back with that raise. She needs only 4 triples to get 65 TES. And will watch her get 160 with 4 triples.

Ladies with quads/3As have a very high potential scoring https://mobile.twitter.com/LazyLys/status/1175450399744155649
Not that i agree with those numbers and those senior men were not clean (otherwise they would have 110-120+), but still.

But If someone, like Sasha, can have a huge technical advantage, then why couldn't someone, like Kostner, have a big artistic advantage? The sport is both.

I guess it doesn't matter anyway since nothing is judged how it's supposed to be... but hypothetically I don't see anything wrong weighing PCS to match TES.
 

SkateSkates

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But even if they change the scoring and Kostner gets 160 with 4 triples, Sasha’s score will also rise. It’s not like her PCS would remain at 65 with the new factoring - they would go up to 80ish, so she would still win overall. It’s not like she’s getting 4s, she’s getting 8s.
 

yume

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But If someone, like Sasha, can have a huge technical advantage, then why couldn't someone, like Kostner, have a big artistic advantage? The sport is both.

I guess it doesn't matter anyway since nothing is judged how it's supposed to be... but hypothetically I don't see anything wrong weighing PCS to match TES.

The thing is, if Kostner bombs she can still get 95 PCS. If Sasha falls on her quads she can't get 90+TES.
 

bubblecherry

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The thing is, if Kostner bombs she can still get 95 PCS. If Sasha falls on her quads she can't get 90+TES.

That's another judging problem. Hypothetically, if you bomb your TR/PE/IN/CO should go down dramatically too... Seems like everything goes back to being a big judging problem
 

Arbitrary

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I never watched a program with multiple popped jumps and good overall PCS-wise winning over technically packed one with wooddoll-style PCS-wise.

Or you need to initiate the anti-Hurding procedure. It may help. Or not...
 

drivingmissdaisy

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But If someone, like Sasha, can have a huge technical advantage, then why couldn't someone, like Kostner, have a big artistic advantage? The sport is both.

She could, but while she's great at a lot of things, Kostner tends to have fewer transitions in her programs than skaters like Alina (which is why Alina can match Caro's PCS). I can't think of any woman yet in the mold of Patrick and Yuzuru who really have it all, the ease of movement and artistry with the complex choreography and transitions between elements.
 

bubblecherry

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She could, but while she's great at a lot of things, Kostner tends to have fewer transitions in her programs than skaters like Alina (which is why Alina can match Caro's PCS). I can't think of any woman yet in the mold of Patrick and Yuzuru who really have it all, the ease of movement and artistry with the complex choreography and transitions between elements.

I only used Kostner because someone else used her as an example. The point is that if someone is strong on TES, then someone should be able to be equally as strong on PCS... but not only are they not weighted properly, they also aren't even scored properly, so it'll never happen.
 

VenusHalley

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She could, but while she's great at a lot of things, Kostner tends to have fewer transitions in her programs than skaters like Alina (which is why Alina can match Caro's PCS). I can't think of any woman yet in the mold of Patrick and Yuzuru who really have it all, the ease of movement and artistry with the complex choreography and transitions between elements.

But Kostners transitions are held well and done with quality. Alina is talented young lady, but some of her transitions in her competitive programs sometimes tend to look like a stumble or trying to keep a balance or it looks like she is unable to hold them.

Sasha is special, she is anything but ladylike, she can sometimes come off as awkward. She can pull it off and will be loved by audience, she is growing into a good performer... but I think sometimes judges will not know what to do with her.
 

yume

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Speaking of quads, Trusova's 4T doesn't have a rough landing like last season anymore. Looks more stable and the height is impressive. This quad isn't bad at all. I would be glad if she ditch the "4lz", keep the 4T, and start to train seriously the 3A.
 

VenusHalley

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Speaking of quads, Trusova's 4T doesn't have a rough landing like last season anymore. Looks more stable and the height is impressive. This quad isn't bad at all. I would be glad if she ditch the "4lz", keep the 4T, and start to train seriously the 3A.

I wonder what happened to her 4sal. And she also landed quad flip in practice.

Her 4Lz is alright these days (she used to crash on it so badly that if I was her mother, I'd threaten to take away her skates if she ever attempts it again). But maybe messing her Lz-Loop combo though. Maybe her 3Lz is too high and fast rotated and it makes it hard to tack on another jump. Or maybe she is training 4loop? Who knows with Sasha.
 

SkateSkates

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I wonder what happened to her 4sal. And she also landed quad flip in practice.

Her 4Lz is alright these days (she used to crash on it so badly that if I was her mother, I'd threaten to take away her skates if she ever attempts it again). But maybe messing her Lz-Loop combo though. Maybe her 3Lz is too high and fast rotated and it makes it hard to tack on another jump. Or maybe she is training 4loop? Who knows with Sasha.

I would also love for Sasha to bring back the 4S instead of the 4Lz. She went into the sal with much less preparation time and it was better integrated into the program. She has a huge windup for the lutz which really takes her out of the program the entire length of the rink.

She has greatly improved her entrances into her 4Ts, though. Of course the entrances cannot be classified as difficult (yet) but there is now at least choreography going on before both 4Ts. At this rate by next season she will be doing steps before the quad toe!
 

LiamForeman

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Having seems Alina and the 3A’s live, Alina really doesn’t have an advantage on the PCS side. The one That does is Alena K. Alina’s advantage before was never the PCS it was that she backloaded programs and was relatively consistent. It’s not really like Jason who truly can spit out points for those non jump/PCS points and has a clear distinction in those areas (and honestly it only takes him so far anyway.)

Thank you, Mrs. P. I agree 100%. I love Alina and am so glad for her success, but her basic skating is not the best in the world, and I also would give Alena Kostornaia that distinction. Alina can't rely on unreal PCS since she really doesn't have it. She's wonderful of course, but when you see an AlenaK skate, you 'get' what crazy PCS scores should go to.
 

Sugar Coated

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Speaking of quads, Trusova's 4T doesn't have a rough landing like last season anymore. Looks more stable and the height is impressive. This quad isn't bad at all. I would be glad if she ditch the "4lz", keep the 4T, and start to train seriously the 3A.

I'm shocked she doesn't have a 3A yet. She clearly has the strength and speed to do it. And we've seen it off ice. I'd be surprised if we don't see it by the end of the season.

A day after Alysa Liu lands the first 3A3T, Sofia Akatieva attempts it too. To me that indicates that the arms race is on, Eteri is watching the potential Olympic competition, and her girls will be pushing the 3A and 3A combos in the future.
 

dante

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A day after Alysa Liu lands the first 3A3T, Sofia Akatieva attempts it too. To me that indicates that the arms race is on, Eteri is watching the potential Olympic competition, and her girls will be pushing the 3A and 3A combos in the future.

They won't compete against each other until the season 2023-24. And their Olympic rivalry won't happen until 2026.
 

VenusHalley

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I'm shocked she doesn't have a 3A yet. She clearly has the strength and speed to do it. And we've seen it off ice. I'd be surprised if we don't see it by the end of the season.

A day after Alysa Liu lands the first 3A3T, Sofia Akatieva attempts it too. To me that indicates that the arms race is on, Eteri is watching the potential Olympic competition, and her girls will be pushing the 3A and 3A combos in the future.


It seems 3A is more about control versus rotation. Even some males find it harder to land than quads. I guess the forward take off is scarier?
 

readernick

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It seems 3A is more about control versus rotation. Even some males find it harder to land than quads. I guess the forward take off is scarier?

I think 3A are easier for some people and quads are easier for others. It probably just depends on what your strongest jump is. Until this year ( Sasha's 2A has improved a lot) I always found Sasha's 2A one of her weakest jumps. So, of course, it is harder for her to learn 3A.
 
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