Old Jackson boots comparison with Jackson's new line

Flying Feijoa

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Country
New-Zealand
@1111bm interesting... do you have the old Jackson insole (flat, white) or the Matrix Poron insole (blue underside, grey terrycloth upper, slightly moulded at the arch and heel) that comes with the newer Fusion models?

The older insole has no arch support at all, while the new one has a bit but it's too squishy to be of much use for significant hyperpronation. I swapped mine out for my usual thin skating orthotics (rigid moulded plastic with a foam upper layer) since lack of arch support aggravates my navicular bones, and found edge control better with the orthotics - although maybe it's because I'm used to them. It might have to do with the fact that the Matrix Poron insole is relatively soft and yields with pressure, whereas a rigid orthotic or an insole-less boot both transmit forces better. The downside is a lack of shock absorption...

Some other forum members (skaters, physios etc.) would probably know more on this subject.
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
@1111bm interesting... do you have the old Jackson insole (flat, white) or the Matrix Poron insole (blue underside, grey terrycloth upper, slightly moulded at the arch and heel) that comes with the newer Fusion models?

The older insole has no arch support at all, while the new one has a bit but it's too squishy to be of much use for significant hyperpronation. I swapped mine out for my usual thin skating orthotics (rigid moulded plastic with a foam upper layer) since lack of arch support aggravates my navicular bones, and found edge control better with the orthotics - although maybe it's because I'm used to them. It might have to do with the fact that the Matrix Poron insole is relatively soft and yields with pressure, whereas a rigid orthotic or an insole-less boot both transmit forces better. The downside is a lack of shock absorption...

Neither, but they are probably something similar to the Matrix Poron you describe?
https://imgur.com/4Q9iezO
https://imgur.com/y2nnPgM
https://imgur.com/cUmSlIv
Although the arch support isn't squishy in mine, it's pretty stiff. But yeah, it's not very pronounced, so I'm still baffled that taking it out makes a world of a difference.

Also not sure why I was fine with those insoles for the first 2-3 years of skating in my boots, and then I started experiencing these problems for at least a year now. Maybe my demands have changed the more skilled I got? (Not saying that I'm skilled per se :laugh:, but hopefully I've developed some compared to 4 years ago). Add to that my boots changing their shape a little and loosening up after time...

The force transmission you mention is exactly what I seem to struggle with whenever there's an insole between my feet and the boot or when the boot is too loose and not hugging my feet. Plus, without insoles I can really feel how I'm actually sitting deeper in my boots, especially my heels, and how I'm closer to my blades.

Speaking of squishy and yielding insoles, I did not mention this before, but before I went 'bare' in my boots, I first tried some Scholl silicone insoles that I bought the other day. I already feared that their squishiness would prove to be a problem and indeed, skating in them felt very wobbly so I quickly took them out again.
 

Ic3Rabbit

Le professionnel d'élite
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Canada
Something like this is what I was given years ago by my orthopaedist for my supination, and i place them in the heel over my boot insoles to correct it. If they are placed in the opposite way they correct overpronation.

Something like this may be all you need, but first you'd need to know if you are supinating or overpronating.
 

sandraskates

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Something like this is what I was given years ago by my orthopaedist for my supination, and i place them in the heel over my boot insoles to correct it. If they are placed in the opposite way they correct overpronation.

Something like this may be all you need, but first you'd need to know if you are supinating or overpronating.


Wow - I like some of those correcting supports. I always wear down the outsides of my shoes. Thanks for that link!
 

Nimyue

On the Ice
Joined
May 15, 2018
For what it's worth, my personal experience with Freestyles was pretty okay. They fit my feet nicely with modifications (heel pinch and toe box stretch). I had a lot of trouble once I broke them down, and needed to find a new skate.

I got custom Elites and they hurt my feet a lot. In fact, my current skates were mailed to be sharpened so I tried to skate in my elites, and it was horrible. You are used to competitors, so you may not have the issues I do with Elites. I'm an adult and the nerves in my feet are Very sensitive and all the padding in the Freestyle/Edeas/Risport RPs are necessary.

Long story short, I should have just gone to the Premiere. It's the Freestyle/Debut but would have been appropriate for my level. Fortuantely, because of all my boot experimentation that cost me an arm and a leg, I ended up trying the Risport RP, and I am in love, and I will never wear anything else ever. I tried Harlicks, Jacksons, played in an Edea (this might have been fine for me like the Premier), but I just LOVE my Risports. The heel on the Risport is lower than the edea and Jackson (Edea's heel is lower than the Jackson also fyi), and this suits me better. Plus they feel like slippers and don't hurt my feet lol.

Long story short, if you liked the freestyles, the Premiere would probably work for you. If you like the older style stiff leather, the Elite would probably work also.
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Try some Graf. I find that they are snug round my heel but also have the width I need for the wider front of my feet and high arches.

Coming back to this... Do you happen to have any experience with how their models compare to Jackson in stiffness? Because I'm searching for a boot that is comparable to a Jackson stiffness rating of 55 (I guess that means up to single Axel, possibly some doubles) but I don't know anything about Graf boots, so I'm not sure how much I can trust the info on their homepage regarding their boots.

Graf is one of the few brands left, that I (maybe) might be able to get my hands on. Although I'm not sure how big chances are that they will fit me, because my feet seem to really love a Jackson cut and just didn't feel at home in any of the Risport boots that I tried on (especially the RF 3 Pro... I've never tried on boots with such a weirdly wide and shallow heel, yikes).
 

WednesdayMarch

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2019
Country
United-Kingdom
Coming back to this... Do you happen to have any experience with how their models compare to Jackson in stiffness? Because I'm searching for a boot that is comparable to a Jackson stiffness rating of 55 (I guess that means up to single Axel, possibly some doubles) but I don't know anything about Graf boots, so I'm not sure how much I can trust the info on their homepage regarding their boots.

Graf is one of the few brands left, that I (maybe) might be able to get my hands on. Although I'm not sure how big chances are that they will fit me, because my feet seem to really love a Jackson cut and just didn't feel at home in any of the Risport boots that I tried on (especially the RF 3 Pro... I've never tried on boots with such a weirdly wide and shallow heel, yikes).
Absolutely no experience of Jackson at all, other than briefly trying a friend's Debut which are on her off-ice frames and, frankly, were terrifyingly high in the heel. They were comfortable but that's my only experience of them.

The Grafs I have worn are their Dance boots (loved them) and the Edmonton Specials. Whilst I like the support of the Edmonton Specials, they are very, very stiff indeed and unless you have the strength and kneebend of an ice dancer, are probably not going to help you much for single Axels and first doubles.
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Thank you! 😊

I just found some info on the Edmonton Specials, that says they're rated for triples and quads, so yes, I guess they might be a tad too stiff for my needs. 😄
I was actually more looking at their mid-level boots such as the Richmond (rated for doubles) or Prestige (rated for single jumps).

I do mostly focus on footwork and since I'm not athletic, I'm not sure I have it in me to even attempt an Axel. And even though I think my knee bend is relatively decent, I don't actually have strength and I 'cheat' by tying my skates looser at the top to be able to achieve that knee bend (I think that's the reason why my old Jacksons don't have even the slightest sign of a crease).
So I'm never quite sure which stiffness would be the most appropriate for the way I skate.

And oh yes, the Debuts are indeed very comfortable, but they're from Jackson's Fusion series and are so weird. They're pretty much the same stiffness rating as my current 5 year old boots, yet they don't feel nearly as stiff and supportive as mine did when they were new, because the padding inside is so different. The way they sit on my feet, it almost feels the same as the compressed (due to age) padding in my current boots. So I guess they wouldn't be much of an improvement over my old boots. Meanwhile I'm searching for boots with a more 'aggressive' padding that's really gripping my feet.
(yes I realise I'm repeating myself and it's been an endless odyssey of me whining about this on these boards, and in real life too, actually)
 

Ic3Rabbit

Le professionnel d'élite
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Country
Canada
Thank you! 😊

I just found some info on the Edmonton Specials, that says they're rated for triples and quads, so yes, I guess they might be a tad too stiff for my needs. 😄
I was actually more looking at their mid-level boots such as the Richmond (rated for doubles) or Prestige (rated for single jumps).

I do mostly focus on footwork and since I'm not athletic, I'm not sure I have it in me to even attempt an Axel. And even though I think my knee bend is relatively decent, I don't actually have strength and I 'cheat' by tying my skates looser at the top to be able to achieve that knee bend (I think that's the reason why my old Jacksons don't have even the slightest sign of a crease).
So I'm never quite sure which stiffness would be the most appropriate for the way I skate.

And oh yes, the Debuts are indeed very comfortable, but they're from Jackson's Fusion series and are so weird. They're pretty much the same stiffness rating as my current 5 year old boots, yet they don't feel nearly as stiff and supportive as mine did when they were new, because the padding inside is so different. The way they sit on my feet, it almost feels the same as the compressed (due to age) padding in my current boots. So I guess they wouldn't be much of an improvement over my old boots. Meanwhile I'm searching for boots with a more 'aggressive' padding that's really gripping my feet.
(yes I realise I'm repeating myself and it's been an endless odyssey of me whining about this on these boards, and in real life too, actually)
Richmond would be okay for you. Please tie your skates tighter though, you risk injury to your ankles and improper breakdown etc of your boots.

Good luck! :)
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Thank you! 😊

I just found some info on the Edmonton Specials, that says they're rated for triples and quads, so yes, I guess they might be a tad too stiff for my needs. 😄
I was actually more looking at their mid-level boots such as the Richmond (rated for doubles) or Prestige (rated for single jumps).

I do mostly focus on footwork and since I'm not athletic, I'm not sure I have it in me to even attempt an Axel. And even though I think my knee bend is relatively decent, I don't actually have strength and I 'cheat' by tying my skates looser at the top to be able to achieve that knee bend (I think that's the reason why my old Jacksons don't have even the slightest sign of a crease).
So I'm never quite sure which stiffness would be the most appropriate for the way I skate.

And oh yes, the Debuts are indeed very comfortable, but they're from Jackson's Fusion series and are so weird. They're pretty much the same stiffness rating as my current 5 year old boots, yet they don't feel nearly as stiff and supportive as mine did when they were new, because the padding inside is so different. The way they sit on my feet, it almost feels the same as the compressed (due to age) padding in my current boots. So I guess they wouldn't be much of an improvement over my old boots. Meanwhile I'm searching for boots with a more 'aggressive' padding that's really gripping my feet.
(yes I realise I'm repeating myself and it's been an endless odyssey of me whining about this on these boards, and in real life too, actually)
the two weeks of pain are worth breaking into skates properly. Do it once, and never worry again
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Please tie your skates tighter though, you risk injury to your ankles and improper breakdown etc of your boots.
the two weeks of pain are worth breaking into skates properly. Do it once, and never worry again

You all made me really question my way of lacing my boots. 😄😪
So I’ve been somewhat analysing my way of lacing these past weeks.

I tie them really tight up to the first hook, and then I flex my ankle, as if I was bending my leg, while I’m tying the two remaining hooks.
One of the reasons I do this is, that otherwise my heel ends up in the wrong position in the boot (or at least that’s what it feels like).

I mean, is this too loose? (this is after I’ve already skated in them, so they probably loosened up a little bit more)

Note:
I know some find it weird, that I don’t use the top hooks, but I’ve never felt that it was necessary, never even occurred to me. TBH, I didn’t even consciously aware of not using them, until some people pointed it out to me.
But it’s also worth noting, that my boot uppers are approx. 1-2 cm higher than those of all other boot models that I’ve recently tried on, so I think it makes sense that I wouldn’t need the top row. But I think it also creates the optical illusion, that they’re looser, than they really are.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
You all made me really question my way of lacing my boots. 😄😪
So I’ve been somewhat analysing my way of lacing these past weeks.

I tie them really tight up to the first hook, and then I flex my ankle, as if I was bending my leg, while I’m tying the two remaining hooks.
One of the reasons I do this is, that otherwise my heel ends up in the wrong position in the boot (or at least that’s what it feels like).

I mean, is this too loose? (this is after I’ve already skated in them, so they probably loosened up a little bit more)

Note:
I know some find it weird, that I don’t use the top hooks, but I’ve never felt that it was necessary, never even occurred to me. TBH, I didn’t even consciously aware of not using them, until some people pointed it out to me.
But it’s also worth noting, that my boot uppers are approx. 1-2 cm higher than those of all other boot models that I’ve recently tried on, so I think it makes sense that I wouldn’t need the top row. But I think it also creates the optical illusion, that they’re looser, than they really are.
Considering you've skated in them I wouldn't say the top is dangerously loose but I'd tie the bottom part tighter (pull the bottom part where the laces are threaded tighter). The hook part looks very typical of how many people tie their skates (I have very gap at top, but usually a certain gap is left between tongue and foot).

Your heel shouldn't end up in the wrong position if you keep your foot normally... Is the boot fitted properly?

The tongue in your case is giving away a lot, but I think that's because you missed top hook rather than way you tied it (I know quite a few ice dancers and one figure skater who has Jackson's and misses the top hook).
 

1111bm

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Considering you've skated in them I wouldn't say the top is dangerously loose but I'd tie the bottom part tighter (pull the bottom part where the laces are threaded tighter). The hook part looks very typical of how many people tie their skates (I have very gap at top, but usually a certain gap is left between tongue and foot).

Your heel shouldn't end up in the wrong position if you keep your foot normally... Is the boot fitted properly?

The tongue in your case is giving away a lot, but I think that's because you missed top hook rather than way you tied it (I know quite a few ice dancers and one figure skater who has Jackson's and misses the top hook).

Thank you for taking the time to answer. 😊

Actually the bottom part is already very tight (the upper holes already tore because of that). Any tighter and my feet go numb, which already happens whenever I overdo it, because I like them supertight in that area, so I need to be conscious of 'when to stop'.

Tbh, I don't recall if I always had that problem with my heel, it's possible that it only started once my boots aged a little and the padding lost some of it's volume, so there's less of a heel lock...? What I can say is, that I've tried on 3 different Risport models and none of them seemed to fit my heel right, but the moment I put on Jackson boots (made on the elite last) my feet felt 'at home' and my heel finally felt like it sat properly in the boot. So I guess my old boots might be a bit too wide in the heel, that's all.

Yeah, I was also pretty amazed by how much the tongue is yielding, I mean, I had never looked at it this closely until now. 😅 But then I realised that it's probably just that visual illusion because the top hooks are not used.
 
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