SBS Pairs Jumps Yay or Nay?

[WeakAnkles]

I have an alternative suggestion. Can ISU move Ice Dance to compete with Synchronized skating, maybe add quartets there too, to form 3 disciplines for a separate competitive stream, and leave the three core disciplines in athletic figure skating as two individual and one pair competitions.

It would beef up and revitalize the synchronized division, and make competition schedules more manageable, plus free up Olympic spots and provides incentive to boost pair skating programs.

it’s an awesome division that offers spectacular elements (including sbs) and longevity to the athletes as well the special edge of acrobatic elements.

dance has by far more in common within its notation, elements and guidelines with synchronized skating than with the athletic-oriented disciplines.

I can't tell you how much I disagree with this. ID has always been the poor stepchild of the four disciplines and has fought long and hard to dispel the idea that "Oh, you can't jump? You should be an ice dancer!"

Pah! I say. ID has earned its place among the core disciplines. In fact, given that it's ice SKATING, it may be the most true to that idea of all four disciplines.

 

[el henry]

I can't tell you how much I disagree with this. ID has always been the poor stepchild of the four disciplines and has fought long and hard to dispel the idea that "Oh, you can't jump? You should be an ice dancer!"

Pah! I say. ID has earned its place among the core disciplines. In fact, given that it's ice SKATING, it may be the most true to that idea of all four disciplines.

Going off topic, but the fact that a jump, or better yet, an additional revolution in the air, is the height of athleticism in skating? Not so much .

Ice dancers are amazing athletes. As are singles skaters with and without all the revolutions. And pairs skaters. (Even though I am in the minority who find SBS jumps distracting We celebrate them all

 

[lariko]

I can't tell you how much I disagree with this. ID has always been the poor stepchild of the four disciplines and has fought long and hard to dispel the idea that "Oh, you can't jump? You should be an ice dancer!"

Pah! I say. ID has earned its place among the core disciplines. In fact, given that it's ice SKATING, it may be the most true to that idea of all four disciplines.

So, how often is ID praised or scored highly for athletic performance?

And the notation and elements of it are not the same as in the other three disciplines. I don’t know a single casual figure skating fan who understands how ID is judged at all, past the emotional impact of each couple on each individual fan who watches it. I see these hot debates on URs and spin levels, but ID? Even when the decision was apparently controversial during the last Eu, I didn’t see anyone going on and on about what specifically was the problem with a lot of people weighing in.

It is simply impossible to watch ID as an athletic discipline.

It’s super confusing, and telling who leads and why is pretty much impossible on the leet level. I went to Skate Canada, and had to see everything, and liked the British the most. But they were 4th. Why? Who knows...

watching experience of ID is also the closest to the synchro.

I mean, don’t you also celebrate synchro, since you don’t care about jumps?

 

[WeakAnkles]

So, how often is ID praised or scored highly for athletic performance?

And the notation and elements of it are not the same as in the other three disciplines. I don’t know a single casual figure skating fan who understands how ID is judged at all, past the emotional impact of each couple on each individual fan who watches it. I see these hot debates on URs and spin levels, but ID? Even when the decision was apparently controversial during the last Eu, I didn’t see anyone going on and on about what specifically was the problem with a lot of people weighing in.

It is simply impossible to watch ID as an athletic discipline.

It’s super confusing, and telling who leads and why is pretty much impossible on the leet level. I went to Skate Canada, and had to see everything, and liked the British the most. But they were 4th. Why? Who knows...

watching experience of ID is also the closest to the synchro.

I mean, don’t you also celebrate synchro, since you don’t care about jumps?

lariko, my account name here should be a hint about as big as the Arctic tundra that not only do I not skate, but I am physically too inept to skate. But I've always loved ID--ok, well not always. In the early years, it was very much like Lawrence Welk on ice for me. But after Torvill and Dean revolutionized the discipline, it's been my favorite. And I wound up being talked into doing the PBPs here. Honestly, I felt like I didn't "know" enough to do that, but I spent the summer before the season began to really systematically watch ID programs. And frankly I thought after a while it was like watching the skating equivalent of a sonnet: you have a set structure of required elements, but total freedom with how you present them. There are currently only five elements for the required rhythm dance, ten for the free dance. And those elements are used in every single program. Wiki does a good basic job at breaking them down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_elements_in_ice_dance. They're used over and over and over in every single senior free dance.

People here were so totally generous with teaching me what to look for when evaluating a program, it was quite the education. Honestly, it's not THAT hard. With a little effort, after three or four competitions you'll catch on to what the judges value. And ask tons of questions in the ID threads. People here really know their stuff and are glad to share their knowledge.

And yes, I also absolutely love synchro. It's so much fun, like the love child of Sonia Henie and Busby Berkeley. In dance, one of the most important things is to skate on the beat (and if you don't think that's athletic, think about people dancing on a solid floor and how many can't do just that. Now think of doing it on ice, in hold with another skater, to music, in costumes, at breakneck speed). For synchro, think of how hard it is to do just that with sixteen skaters. If a pair does a mirror move, why is that more "athletic" than 16 skaters mirroring each other?

And who says I don't love jumps? My problem with a good many singles/pairs programs is that, if you look at the scoring, it's become almost entirely -- and only -- about the jumps. And ice dance proves there are moves that never leave the ice which are just as exciting as a great jump. Like, for instance, the incomparable twizzles of the Shib Sibs.

Sorry to have hijacked the thread, but oh heck. No I'm not sorry.

 

[4everchan]

taking sbs jumps ouf of pairs makes the men forklifts and women daredevils being thrown and lifted... i love SBS jumps : they are very difficult to execute and time well but when well done, they are wonderful. When Duhamel and Radford were landing their SBS lutzes or their 3 jumps combos, WOW. The issue with them is that it takes a lot of time for teams to gel in executing them, technique, height difference, timing, all of that are factors that make SBS jumps difficult. Many pairs keep playing musical chairs, like in the USA for instance... and I would say that's why there are issues with the jumps. Teams do not have time to perfect them, as it takes several seasons. Duhamel said herself that they wanted to do the lutz for years, and kept trying until it finally worked out. For that, they spent 2/3 seasons trying them at events and not succeeding well. Well, many pairs only last 3-4 years at the most these years...changing at new olympic cycles (retirements, splits etc)... when looking at junior russian pairs, the ones who have skated together for a long time, you can see how well they can execute those jumps and some very hard combos including euler combos. Moore-Towers and Marinaro are starting to gel on their jumps as well.. Their 3toe is often flawless.... they tried 2a Eu 3S for many seasons which didn't work and now are doing 3s-2t.... and it's starting to gel too... but they are a team who have been skating together now for 6 years... It just takes time.... and not to criticize but Mervin Tran is a perfect example of musical chair pairs ... and after his first very successful partnership, his teams have never been consistent on SBS jumps... just NOT enough time and experience jumping together. They have huge SBS potential with Serafini, a good jumper herself. They tried 3flips at SKAM... but Mervin could not land a jump to save his life that weekend.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think the ISU should go back to allowing more freedom in the content of fps which would lead to more creativity and risk-taking, that in fact was witnessed in the 1970s when pairs was growing its athletic dimensions and advancing the discipline.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I think the ISU should go back to allowing more freedom in the content of fps which would lead to more creativity and risk-taking, that in fact was witnessed in the 1970s when pairs was growing its athletic dimensions and advancing the discipline.

More to the point I'd like more modular programs. A maximum and a minimum number of each element and rules like that, and a maximum total number of elements but have skaters be able to pick and choose which elements to use to a certain extent.

 

[4everchan]

even in the 90s, there was more freedom in the pairs long program... some teams had two different twists or different death spirals... there some jumps sequences that were really fun to watch even if they contained easier jumps, but the synchro and choreo of them were interesting... already, i feel cheated that they cut down on the spins requirement... i think both spins are important in each program.... i would definitely like to have team have a bit more freedom in building their programs... it would make things more competitive as well... for instance, a team that has a great twist may work on a lateral twist or an axel entrance twist....while a team with great jumping skills may add a jumping pass and remove a lift etc... i don't like the choreo element in dance because it sort of gives the judges a lot of power to rank athletes just on GOE .. but if there was a minimal canvas made for pairs, and then all the extra elements were worth let's say a fixed 4-5 points each in BV but pairs could choose maybe 3 of them it would be exciting... and would be fair in the sense that a second twist would be worth the same as a second jumping pass or as another extra element ... pairs could really be creative and play the system accordingly to their strengths...

 

[eterislouisvuitton]

I think the reason that side by side jumps are a struggle is that pairs partners are always used to having their partner help them with elements, especially the girl. So when all of the sudden no one else is there and you have to jump by yourself in coordination with someone a foot taller/shorter than you, it becomes difficult

IF there were no SBS jumps, it would be easier for men to transfer into pairs from acrobatics than from singles skating.

There is a revolution coming. I can feel it. Teams that struggle with jumps will be at the top of the world stage no more. the 3Lz, 3F, and 3Lo will not be so uncommon. More pairs will be formed like Kostyuk/Rud, who both came from a high level in singles recently, and could do 3Lz+3T+2T and 3F if they really wanted to.

 

[TT_Fin]

I like it this way it is now. I don't want them more, but not less either. But maybe there could be rule like no 3A at pairs ( I don't really know what is allowed or can they choose any jump they want) and combinations could be chosen from not so difficult ones. The rules could specify the allowed jumps pairs could choose from jumps some which they announce at the end of the previous season - isn't at juniors already so?

 

[karne]

I like it this way it is now. I don't want them more, but not less either. But maybe there could be rule like no 3A at pairs ( I don't really know what is allowed or can they choose any jump they want) and combinations could be chosen from not so difficult ones. The rules could specify the allowed jumps pairs could choose from jumps some which they announce at the end of the previous season - isn't at juniors already so?

I mean, there's still only 11 or so ladies ever who have landed the 3A, so I doubt we're about to see it becoming a popular SBS jump any time soon (and men who can land 3As also generally prefer to stay in singles).

Juniors already have a prescribed jump that can be a double or triple. This wouldn't be too bad in Seniors either, but if it's anything other than Salchow or toe, we'd be seeing a lot of doubles, so I feel like that would be a step backwards.