Score this - PCS for Top 6 Women at the 2002, 2006, and 2018 Olympics

Skatesocs

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This is an idea from the "Irina Slutskaya and Olympics 2002" thread - I was initially interested in doing a full-blown CoP rescore for 2002 Olympics, but there was a lack of interest there for doing all the tech elements, so I just want to see what this forum thinks the PCS should be for the top 6 ladies at these three Olympics.

Reasons for picking these

2002: apart from the thread, it's the last Olympics to use 6.0, and also the Olympics that spurned the CoP
2006: the first Olympics to use CoP
2018: the latest Olympics to use CoP

I'd love to read the what you'd have as the PCS scores for the top 6 women at these Olympics, for the SP and the LP, along with justification. It would be a comparative exercise for how skating has changed since then "artistically". It would be even better if the posters can say what they feel has improved/deteriorated through the years.

The main rule is an attempt at analysis and objectivity - putting it right here so that I don't have to remind you. This isn't for "I watched them so I know better". There's no way to debate that. It places you as an authority, when I want to see people engage in good faith debate. Please keep an open mind (which also means no bickering).

It's also not for "well :) we're all biased, wink wink". If we're all biased, we don't need reminding. Or if it's all so subjective that any mark can be justified, we don't really need to analyse or discuss anything. Let's move past that for this thread to make it a worthy debate!

Top 6 women at the 2002 Olympics:

1 Sarah Hughes
2 Irina Slutskaya
3 Michelle Kwan
4 Sasha Cohen
5 Fumie Suguri
6 Maria Butyrskaya

Top 6 women at the 2006 Olympics:

1 Shizuka Arakawa
2 Sasha Cohen
3 Irina Slutskaya
4 Fumie Suguri
5 Joannie Rochette
6 Kimmie Meissner

Top 6 women at the 2018 Olympics:

1 Alina Zagitova
2 Evgenia Medvedeva
3 Kaetlyn Osmond
4 Satoko Miyahara
5 Carolina Kostner
6 Kaori Sakamoto

I'll try to find videos for them if they aren't easily available (unless GS has some sort of video archivist at the ready, that'd be great!).
 

labgoat

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I'll try to find videos for them if they aren't easily available (unless GS has some sort of video archivist at the ready, that'd be great!).

My video threads are available - just search by year and event (i.e. - 2006 Olympics) in the box at the top right of this page. I will not be scoring with you, but will follow the thread.

2002 Olympics

2006 Olympics

2018 Olympics
 

Skatesocs

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My video threads are available - just search by year and event (i.e. - 2006 Olympics) in the box at the top right of this page. I will not be scoring with you, but will follow the thread.

2002 Olympics

2006 Olympics

2018 Olympics

I don't think anyone will be scoring :laugh: But thank you! I'll try to at least give my opinions on what is the best SP and LP at each of these Olympics, and what I think has changed.
 

Skatesocs

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I realize that 36 programs was a tall ask for a forum :rofl::rofl::rofl: still, I hope we can discuss what people think is the best program for each segment of the competition at these three Olympics?
 

fallingsk8er

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Long Programs only

1 Sarah Hughes - 8.00 a little awkward and rushed; but super confident
2 Irina Slutskaya - 8.75 (very strong and solid)
3 Michelle Kwan - 9.25 elegant and smooth; great costume
4 Sasha Cohen - 9.25 elegant and great extensions
5 Fumie Suguri - 9.00 - fast and beautiful
6 Maria Butyrskaya - 7.75 too stiff and scratchy and the music was a bit harsh for my tastes


1 Shizuka Arakawa - 9.25
2 Sasha Cohen - 8.25 too many mistakes for me to enjoy this
3 Irina Slutskaya - 8.75 seemed nervous; couldn't relax
4 Fumie Suguri - 9.00 - she should have gotten a medal for that
5 Joannie Rochette - didnt watch
6 Kimmie Meissner - 9.00 - loved her confidence


1 Alina Zagitova - 9.25 - exciting with lots of jumps
2 Evgenia Medvedeva - 9.50 - appreciated the artistry
3 Kaetlyn Osmond - 9.50 - strong and powerful; great music choice
4 Satoko Miyahara - 8.75 - seemed slow
5 Carolina Kostner - didn't watch
6 Kaori Sakamoto - didnt watch
 

Blades of Passion

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Just the Long Programs for now. I rewatched all of the programs at least twice and some of them an exhaustive amount of times, because I started getting obsessed with comparing transitional content between eras, and also the exact details for why modern programs are so lackluster artistically. I kept forcing myself to try and enjoy some of those 2018 programs more, but yikes, they really do lack soul and frankly feel alien at times in how disconnected the moves are from having meaning. Standard listed order of Skating Skills / Transitions / Performance / Choreography / Interpretation

2002:
Sarah Hughes: 8.25 -- 8.25 -- 9.25 -- 8.75 -- 9.0 -- 69.6
Michelle Kwan: 8.75 -- 8.0 -- 8.5 -- 8.5 -- 8.5 -- 67.6

Sasha Cohen: 7.75 -- 7.5 -- 8.5 -- 8.25 -- 8.0 -- 64.0
Fumie Suguri: 8.25 -- 7.5 -- 8.0 -- 8.0 -- 8.25 -- 64.0
Maria Butyrskaya: 8.25 -- 7.25 -- 8.0 -- 7.75 -- 8.25 -- 63.2

Irina Slutskaya: 8.0 -- 7.5 -- 7.5 -- 7.25 -- 7.25 -- 60.0

2006:
Sasha Cohen: 8.25 -- 8.25 -- 9.0 -- 9.0 -- 9.25 -- 70.0
Shizuka Arakawa: 9.0 -- 8.5 -- 8.75 -- 8.5 -- 8.75 -- 69.6

Irina Slutskaya: 8.0 -- 7.5 -- 8.25 -- 7.75 -- 8.0 -- 63.2

Joannie Rochette: 8.0 -- 7.75 -- 8.0 -- 7.5 -- 7.5 -- 62.0
Fumie Suguri: 8.0 -- 7.0 -- 8.25 -- 7.5 -- 7.75 -- 61.6

Kimmie Meissner: 7.25 -- 7.25 -- 7.25 -- 7.25 -- 7.25 -- 58.0

2018:
Kaori Sakamoto: 8.5 -- 8.0 -- 8.25 -- 8.0 -- 8.25 -- 65.6

Evgenia Medvedeva: 8.0 -- 8.25 -- 8.5 -- 7.5 -- 7.5 -- 63.6

Kaetlyn Osmond: 8.25 -- 8.25 -- 7.75 -- 7.5 -- 7.5 -- 62.8
Satoko Miyahara: 8.5 -- 8.25 -- 8.0 -- 7.5 -- 7.0 -- 62.8
Alina Zagitova: 8.0 -- 7.75 -- 8.0 -- 7.75 -- 7.75 -- 62.8
Carolina Kostner: 8.5 -- 7.5 -- 8.0 -- 7.75 -- 7.5 -- 62.8


The recent Olympics show us programs crammed with superficial movement, where the skaters' body lines are constantly being broken by some random turn, where the edges are not being held out, the music is treated as something the skater will acknowledge when they can be bothered to, the jumps are there to be rushed through rather than savored, and the choreography is not dedicated to being cohesive or personal or spectacular, but rather is a mechanism for displaying a hodgepodge of movement. Kaori Sakamoto's program was the only one that took a moment to stop and breathe, to display a meaningful character and vulnerable emotion. Her 3-jump combo also served a better musical and choreographic purpose than anyone else's.

There's a funny thing about transitions with IJS programs, where people these days are doing more movement leading into a jump, but not necessarily doing more movement between the elements in total. Transitions are everything that happens between the elements, and since the footwork sequences and spins are taking up more time, that means there is less time to actually skate between the elements. Older programs may have longer jump setups (which often serve a worthwhile choreographic purpose) but sometimes there's more body positions and subtle edges and steps happening throughout.

Zagitova's program has less transitions than it would seem, considering her school. The entire first half of the program are her footwork sequences and a spin, so where can there even be many transitions? In the later half of the program she does nothing going into the second lutz and flip, and only her weak jumps (the axels and salchow) have something of note directly before the takeoff. Many of her jumps lack speed on the exit or something extra instead. Quite the deception.
 

Skatesocs

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I'll comment on more later (and I still have to get my scores out!) but curious that you put Zagi below Med on PCS. I'd agree Sakamoto deserved the most, but simply based on "artistry" Zagi was ahead of Med to me. To be fair you DO say that on your components as the choreo/interpretation is slightly higher - it's surprisingly the transitions/performance that pulls Med ahead (I agree Med gave a better PE).

Absolutely agree that Cohen has the best program of the lot. The way you rank the top 5 is probably the same as mine.
 

Blades of Passion

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It's mind-wracking trying to conjugate those 2018 programs when they are essentially the same pile of mania in the end. It feels like a nightmarish bizzaro alternate reality that those programs were given the highest PCS ever.

Comparing Kostner's 2011 version of Afternoon of the Faun to the 2018 version is quite a good case study. The 2018 version has a distinctly worse step sequence, a worse "choreography sequence" (which was formally a spiral sequence), smaller jumps, less refined arms, and random hops and turns thrown into the program, straying from the character of the music in favor of busy work.
 

Skatesocs

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Comparing Kostner's 2011 version of Afternoon of the Faun to the 2018 version is quite a good case study. The 2018 version has a distinctly worse step sequence, a worse "choreography sequence" (which was formally a spiral sequence), smaller jumps, less refined arms, and random hops and turns thrown into the program, straying from the character of the music in favor of busy work.

I like that you dinged her on skating skills. She'd plainly lost her quality at this point.
 

Skatesocs

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It's mind-wracking trying to conjugate those 2018 programs when they are essentially the same pile of mania in the end.
I thought Miyahara's SP was pretty good at GPF that season. But for the rest, you're right. I don't think I'm able to say they deserve more than 6.5s and 6.75s and maybe an occasional 7 for the rest of the programs here. Medvedeva's LP is particularly awful, even though I'd give her the highest PE score of the LP event for it.

I can really only appreciate Kostner's spin choreography apart from that... But I've never understood why she always keeps smiling. What is that supposed to mean in Ne Me Quitte Pas?

I'd score it

8.75/ 8.00/ 8.25/ 7.75/ 7.25
PCS: 32.00

For nice edging and speed/flow (and control of it) but showing less ability in the blade control through her step sequence; the transitions between the flying camel and layback, but deducting for the mistakes (maybe should also deduct for pause between steps into 3Lo); nice energy except mistakes; decent spins; strange meaningless mess except a couple of facial expressions during transitions.
 

Blades of Passion

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I wish Miyahara's SP had been better, it could have been good music for her, but I got neither the repression, nor the sensuality, nor the dance-quality of a geisha from her (aside from a couple little moves). The moves she starts doing a couple seconds after the 3Loop is a perfect example of how poorly people skate these days, in terms of choreography/interpretation. The music is slow and sparse and meditative, but instead of doing something to reflect it, she's doing a rocker and a couple twizzles and a loop turn and multiple downward lurches of the body. Random, disconnected.

Giada Russo had one of the best SP's from an artistic perspective at 2018 Olympics, it's too bad she had a fall there. Aiza Mambekova was a surprising highlight too, she incorporated the spins and footwork about as well as can be expected, and followed the music with nice expression and flourishes. I want to point out how seamless the position changes in her flying sit spin were, usually people break the body line or have a jerky quality between some of the shifts, especially when trying to do the back tuck position, but she kept it all smooth. Giada's flying sit actually used the same features and was similarly rather seamless.
 

Skatesocs

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I wish Miyahara's SP had been better, it could have been good music for her, but I got neither the repression, nor the sensuality, nor the dance-quality of a geisha from her (aside from a couple little moves).

Sorry, should have been clearer (I notice that I muddled talking about her performance at GPF with the 6s I'd give for choreography here). I liked the performance at GPF (the choreography didn't change between then and the Olympics, I don't think?), and she showed beautiful pure skating there. I never got what it meant, but she did well with it there, for me. She managed to contort all the contortions, somehow. Here she just looked tense. I've never been impressed with a choreography for her to be fair, I just only recently loved her Metamorphosis gala.

I'm not at all sure what is up with Sakamoto's Moonlight Sonata.

Giada Russo had one of the best SP's from an artistic perspective at 2018 Olympics, it's too bad she had a fall there. Aiza Mambekova was a surprising highlight too, she incorporated the spins and footwork about as well as can be expected, and followed the music with nice expression and flourishes. I want to point out how seamless the position changes in her flying sit spin were, usually people break the body line or have a jerky quality between some of the shifts, especially when trying to do the back tuck position, but she kept it all smooth. Giada's flying sit actually used the same features and was similarly rather seamless.

I remember Russo! She's had similarly interesting programs, and generally used transitions with meaning (and creativity). She'll be doing ice dance now. I'll have to watch Mambekova though. I like that you remember the "unimportant" skaters. I guess when they're not in contention why not try.

Even from the men's event, I thought no one had a nice program at the top level. Chen did with his SP and LP, but there was nothing there after the first couple of events that season.
 
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