Skate Canada Changes Terminology - what do you call these elements where you are?

SmallAminal

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Skate Canada sent an email detailing its terminology change for two steps:

The term "C Step" will be used for the step formerly known as "Mohawk"
The term "S Step" will be used for the step formerly known as "Choctaw"

I applaud this change in being more respectful and culturally sensitive .

I am curious - what are these steps called in other parts of the world? I guess I grew up using the old terminology, not really thinking at the time that there was a certain level of insensitivity in their use. are the terms "C Step" and "S Step" commonly used elsewhere? Are there other names for the steps? I note that their email indicates this change only for "domestic applications" which makes me think that the C and S Step are not commonly used elsewhere. But that's confusing, if you have one set of terms domestically but something else internationally? What is the ISU's position on this?
 

WednesdayMarch

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Mar 24, 2019
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United-Kingdom
I've not heard those terms, but I can understand the reasoning behind them.

I think most of the terms used in the UK are the same worldwide, although 40 years ago a toe loop was widely referred to as a 'cherry flip' or just a 'cherry'. That died out in the late 80s, IIRC.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
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Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
I've not heard those terms, but I can understand the reasoning behind them.

I think most of the terms used in the UK are the same worldwide, although 40 years ago a toe loop was widely referred to as a 'cherry flip' or just a 'cherry'. That died out in the late 80s, IIRC.
And when one considers the widely-known slang meaning of the term 'popping your cherry' that's probably a good thing! :laugh:

I like these changes. Good on Skate Canada for taking a small step forwards, and I hope it's backed up by further work toward diversity and inclusion in the future.
 

SmallAminal

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
although 40 years ago a toe loop was widely referred to as a 'cherry flip' or just a 'cherry'. That died out in the late 80s, IIRC.
I have never heard of this before and I'm fascinated! A "cherry flip"! do you know how this term originated? Was the jump credited to someone named "Cherry"? A "double cherry flip" sounds more like some kind of ice cream sundae though....
 

SmallAminal

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Good on Skate Canada for taking a small step forwards, and I hope it's backed up by further work toward diversity and inclusion in the future.
Yes, they had further detailed a wider plan, including a list of actions they are taking in commitment to equity, diversity and inclusion. This includes establishing a working group with some well known skaters at the helm.
 

WednesdayMarch

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United-Kingdom
And when one considers the widely-known slang meaning of the term 'popping your cherry' that's probably a good thing! :laugh:
My thoughts exactly!

I have never heard of this before and I'm fascinated! A "cherry flip"! do you know how this term originated? Was the jump credited to someone named "Cherry"? A "double cherry flip" sounds more like some kind of ice cream sundae though....
I'm sorry but I have absolutely no idea. It was a really common term back in the early 80s but I never found out where it came from.
 

silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
While I applaud the term changes, I'm not happy with the new terms they've chosen. I grew up with the terms Mohawk and Choctaw, but hockey already has a term for the Mohawk: the 180 pivot, which I much prefer to C-Step. Although to be fair, not sure where that leaves the new name for the Choctaw. I appreciate that Skate Canada is taking the easy steps to improving diversity and inclusion in the sport. It shows that they are taking this seriously, I just wish they could come up with better terms.
 

WednesdayMarch

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United-Kingdom
While I applaud the term changes, I'm not happy with the new terms they've chosen. I grew up with the terms Mohawk and Choctaw, but hockey already has a term for the Mohawk: the 180 pivot, which I much prefer to C-Step. Although to be fair, not sure where that leaves the new name for the Choctaw. I appreciate that Skate Canada is taking the easy steps to improving diversity and inclusion in the sport. It shows that they are taking this seriously, I just wish they could come up with better terms.
I think they're perfectly good terms. They describe the tracings on the ice. Simple and logical, much like the 3 turn.

I've been saddened to see some high profile skaters taking issue with the renaming and insisting that the steps will always be "Mohawk" and "Choctaw". I had hoped for better.
 

JSM

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
I feel like most non-skating folk hear “Mohawk” and think hairstyle, tbf. This will prevent confusion with kids in basic 6 and pre-Freeskate! ;)

It will probably take some time for some of us to stop calling them Mohawks and Choctaws out of ingrained habit, but good on Skate Canada for taking the initiative.
 

sashavis

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 27, 2020
Country
United-States
We've always just called them Choctaws and Mohawks. I'm in the US, and I haven't heard any plans from USFSA on changing the terminology, but I could also just be super out of the loop.
 

Yannis94

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Always called them choctaws and mohawks. As far as the comment on the toe loop being called cherry flip, I've heard a Dutch commentator use the term dated in 2007. So yeah, in Belgium we either call it toe loop or piqué.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Jan 28, 2013
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This is a solution to a non-existent controversy.

Hey, Skate Canada, how about addressing the issues raised by Asher Hill?

That would be a meaningful effort at addressing racism in our sport.
 

SmallAminal

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Jul 26, 2016
This is a solution to a non-existent controversy.

Hey, Skate Canada, how about addressing the issues raised by Asher Hill?

That would be a meaningful effort at addressing racism in our sport.
While I agree that they haven't really done anything to address the issues raised by Asher (and others), I don't think its fair to say this is a non-existent controversy.... if you are Indigenous/First Nation/Native American you might appreciate them making the change.

I hope this is not an either/or, meaning that they think they can do this and call it a day....it would be awfully performative otherwise. This is but one of *many* things that should be addressed and I am anxiously awaiting to see what their committee is going to come up with in terms of tangible changes. I hope that they come through.
 

silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
This is a solution to a non-existent controversy.

Hey, Skate Canada, how about addressing the issues raised by Asher Hill?

That would be a meaningful effort at addressing racism in our sport.
Skate Canada is taking steps to address the issues of racism raised by Asher Hill and others. You can see the full release here. While it remains to be seen if they will follow through fully with these initiatives and enact change, they do appear to be genuinely trying to address these issues. Fixing racism in the sport is a long game. It's going to take decades and be done in baby steps. It's not easy to change an ingrained culture.

I'd also add that the main reason there is no controversy around the terms Mohawk and Choctaw is that the level of Indigenous participation in figure skating is even lower than the participation of Black skaters, which is a component to combating racisim in the sport. Proactivly changing the terms makes the sport more welcoming to Indigenous peoples. A small step, but an easy and quick one to take so there is no reason not to make that change if the organization is taking inclusiveity safely.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
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Jun 6, 2019
I've been to a lot of figure skating countries and met with a lot of international coaches... Every single one of them called them Mohawk and Choktaw. The new terminology is not interchangeable with every alphabet / language so people will not be able to use these terms when speaking to foreign skaters. I don't know why they changed them: Can you imagine somebody saying "Triple flip from C-step entry" or "S-Step into triple lutz." It just doesn't feel right to say.

It's a non-existent problem... its beaurocracy trying to make itself seem useful by making unnecessary changes which in my opinion are unsuccessful changes.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
Can you imagine somebody saying "Triple flip from C-step entry" or "S-Step into triple lutz." It just doesn't feel right to say.
It doesn't feel right to you (and plenty of other people) to say yet because you're not used to it yet. Give it a few years' worth of practice and it will flow more naturally - and for the kids who start learning to skate using this terminology, it will always feel right because they've never known any other way to say it. :)

And remember, some of those kids may be First Nations. Do you not think they'd be more comfortable learning to skate using names that are based on shapes drawn on the ice, rather than names that are based on ignorant stereotypes about their Nations' sacred rituals?
 

WednesdayMarch

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Mar 24, 2019
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anonymoose_au

Making rhinestone vest and tie combos cool
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Feb 22, 2014
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Australia
That's an excellent piece and yes, the new terminology isn't exactly perfect when it comes to Cyrillic... I shall give that some thought!
Indeed, the English S sound looks like this: С

While the English C sound looks like this: К

As far as I know Cyrillic has no letter that looks like English's S so what happens?

Maybe they could call it the "C-shaped" and "S-shaped" steps rather than just the letters by themselves.

Or maybe "Curved step" and "Snake step" would work?
 
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