Skaters who competed under the wrong scoring system

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I think that some skaters were born too soon and others too late. Or simply didn't compete under the scoring system that suited them.

Midori Ito would have done better CoP. Superb jumps, good spins. Could have win more golds on BV advantage + huge GOEs. If she had nowadays' skates, she could have landed the first lady quad.

Mao would have won more under 6.0, the one with compulsory figures. Flutz and URs weren't big things (see Lipintski ang Sarah Hughes). She could have skated a 7 or 8 triples program, flutzing and URing her way to olys gold.
Difficulty seemed to matter more than execution. Kim wouldn't have had those gigantic GOEs to close the difficulty gap. I don't think having bigger jumps would have done it.

Speed had not so much value in SS and artistic mark in general. Faster skaters (Kim, Kostner) were getting better scores even if she had better blade work imo. Compulsory figures would have given her a lead over Kim i think.

Brown would have gotten plenty of 6.0 for artistic mark that maybe could have make him win.

Who else do you think would have done better under different system?
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Ashley Wagner would have done better under 6.0. Flutz and UR didn't matter ... but most importantly, as long as you kept up with current level of technique and jumps ... performance, musicality, ice presence, charisma, and audience connection mattered. Since the presentation mark was the tie-breaker and most important, Ashley could have tipped that balance.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
It's hard to say, because good skaters tend to adapt to the system they skate under. The problem for Mao is that she started under a system that didn't penalize her deficiencies. IIRC she was 12 when skating moved to the current system, and by then some of her bad habits were probably already ingrained. Yuna benefitted from the quality-over-quantity aspect of the judging system when she competed, because the +GOE boost was even more substantial.
 

Ballade88

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
I am all for quality over quantity but the GOE scoring between 2008-2010 was ridiculous. Remember when Laura Lepisto won a worlds medal with like 2-3 triples? Also, judges seem to only care about GOE for jumps. As long as that is great, they will give out GOE for everything else regardless if the non-jump elements truly deserve those GOEs. That's why I was against increasing the GOE scale to +5. It just provides more leeway for judges to prop up the skaters they favor. A lot of the Russian skaters get ridiculous GOEs when their jumps aren't that impressive at all. There needs to be a balance between difficulty and quality. Considering the subjective nature of GOE scoring, giving a slightly greater weight to difficulty might be necessary, since the base value is one of the only things that you can't manipulate. Also, there are a lot of cases of pretty good jumps that fall a bit short on the landing. It's similar to a fantastic, difficult beam routine in gymnastics but the landing is less than perfect vs a well-executed standard beam routine. The former is still more impressive in my opinion. Quality and quantity are not inherently separate but much more intertwined.


As for skaters who competed under the wrong system, Janet Lynn is the poster skater for competing in the wrong era. Midori would fare better under COP although I think she would still be undermined in PCS. I think the American skaters over the last decade might have done better. Maybe Mirai would have been a real star. Daisuke Takahashi would probably be a multiple world champion. But then again, I don't think Midori and Mao did too shabby for themselves with all things considered. 6.0 suited Michelle's skating wonderfully but she still couldn't get the gold.
 
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Tolstoj

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
I am all for quality over quantity but the GOE scoring between 2008-2010 was ridiculous. Remember when Laura Lepisto won a worlds medal with like 2-3 triples? Also, judges seem to only care about GOE for jumps. As long as that is great, they will give out GOE for everything else regardless if the non-jump elements truly deserve those GOEs. That's why I was against increasing the GOE scale to +5. It just provides more leeway for judges to prop up the skaters they favor. A lot of the Russian skaters get ridiculous GOEs when their jumps aren't that impressive at all. There needs to be a balance between difficulty and quality. Considering the subjective nature of GOE scoring, giving a slightly greater weight to difficulty might be necessary, since the base value is one of the only things that you can't manipulate. Also, there are a lot of cases of pretty good jumps that fall a bit short on the landing. It's similar to a fantastic, difficult beam routine in gymnastics but the landing is less than perfect vs a well-executed standard beam routine. The former is still more impressive in my opinion. Quality and quantity are not inherently separate but much more intertwined.


As for skaters who competed under the wrong system, Janet Lynn is the poster skater for competing in the wrong era. Midori would fare better under COP although I think she would still be undermined in PCS. I think the American skaters over the last decade might have done better. Maybe Mirai would have been a real star. Daisuke Takahashi would probably be a multiple world champion. But then again, I don't think Midori and Mao did too shabby for themselves with all things considered. 6.0 suited Michelle's skating wonderfully but she still couldn't get the gold.

I've always thought Lepisto medalling at Worlds that year was compensation for the Olympics where in the free she actually skated a clean program (first ever from her i think for the free) and arguargbly should have beaten Roachette who wasn't as clean as we all pretended, at least in that segment.

Too bad it's basically impossible to find that full Ladies Free Skate event from the 2010 Olympics. Hopefully they'll stream it in the future.
 

nussnacker

one and only
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 16, 2019
I think that some skaters were born too soon and others too late. Or simply didn't compete under the scoring system that suited them.

Midori Ito would have done better CoP. Superb jumps, good spins. Could have win more golds on BV advantage + huge GOEs. If she had nowadays' skates, she could have landed the first lady quad.

Mao would have won more under 6.0, the one with compulsory figures. Flutz and URs weren't big things (see Lipintski ang Sarah Hughes). She could have skated a 7 or 8 triples program, flutzing and URing her way to olys gold.
Difficulty seemed to matter more than execution. Kim wouldn't have had those gigantic GOEs to close the difficulty gap. I don't think having bigger jumps would have done it.

Speed had not so much value in SS and artistic mark in general. Faster skaters (Kim, Kostner) were getting better scores even if she had better blade work imo. Compulsory figures would have given her a lead over Kim i think.

Brown would have gotten plenty of 6.0 for artistic mark that maybe could have make him win.

Who else do you think would have done better under different system?
Absolutely agree about Mao. Flutz and UR weren’t even big deals pre 2007-2008(?), I forgot. Definitely yes for 6.0, but even in system of the first Olympic quad under IJS (2002-2006), Mao would’ve easily won the 2006 Olympics, because URs and flutzes weren’t marked with such scrutiny back then. And the way her SS were underappreciated at the time also is one of the biggest things that make me sad.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Patrick Chan 6.0. Probably nobody could beat him at figures, blade control.

I feel like he'd struggle after 1984, when you needed a reliable 3A to get to the top of the sport. Of course, not training quads would probably have allowed him to spend more time working on his problem jump.
 

katymay

Medalist
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Surya Bonaly would have done better under the new system. And of course Midori Ito would have. Nicole Bobek and Tonya Harding would have done better now then when they skated. Mariah Bell would have done better under the old 6.0 system.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Flutz and UR weren’t even big deals pre 2007-2008(?), I forgot.
Flutz wasn't before 2007-08. URs were definitely scrutinized more at the onset of IJS.

I wonder how some of these people would have developed with different systems. Yume is correct about Ito, she'd have landed the first quad, but apart from that, I'm curious about the rest of the people mentioned.

I'm also curious about what would have happened if we had Mao vs Michelle hahaha. Or if Michelle were competing under IJS instead, against Yuna and Mao.
 
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skycastles

Spectator
Joined
May 27, 2020
Country
United-States
This is such an interesting idea for a topic. I guess my main thing is, it's hard to compare what skaters would have done if they had been in different era's. Midori Ito was revolutionary for her time, because of her stellar jump technique that was huge enough for her to do a triple axel, and she was the pioneer for it in ladies skating. If she had been competing in the IJS system someone else would have had to do that though-- it's like the idea that you're standing on the shoulder of giants. Skaters build upon the accomplishments of others and the rules favor different aspects of skating. Certain skaters were just kind of perfect for the era's they were in. It would be interesting to see what a skater like Alina would do under a different skating system and which aspects her and her team would favor to get the best results, but at the same the context under which they are performing is so important that it is hard to remove them from their era's.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Surya Bonaly would have done better under the new system. And of course Midori Ito would have. Nicole Bobek and Tonya Harding would have done better now then when they skated. Mariah Bell would have done better under the old 6.0 system.
Unfortunately i think Surya would have gotten the same results or worse. Judges would have given her low GOEs for her landings. I don't even want to think about her pcs. Probably low 7s at best. Quantity/complexity played in her favor under 6.0. Under CoP, the gap with skaters seen as more artistic would have been bigger and those skaters could have competed with her in TES thanks to GOE. Even if she had landed the quad.

Flutz wasn't before 2007-08. URs were definitely scrutinized more at the onset of IJS.

I wonder how some of these people would have developed with different systems. Yume is correct about Ito, she'd have landed the first quad, but apart from that, I'm curious about the rest of the people mentioned.

I'm also curious about what would have happened if we had Mao vs Michelle hahaha. Or if Michelle were competing under IJS instead, against Yuna and Mao.
1.Yuna 2.Mao 3.Michelle.
Kostner already had won against Michelle in 2005 thanks to qualifying round in which she got big TES. Michelle beat her in both SP and FS but it wasnt enough. Especially because Kostner's pcs were awfully close to Michelle's pcs.
So i think that Yuna and Mao would have been very close in pcs and would have won on TES.

I'm curious about a Midori vs Yuna.
 
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