Snapping into rotation faster? | Golden Skate

Snapping into rotation faster?

sk8chis

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Hi guys. Ive been working on my double loop for over a month and a half now and i feel like its really close but i know i still have a lot to work on. https://www.instagram.com/p/CUoLDLapv8w/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUiDqkLFV0-/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

my coach wants me to snap into rotation faster (i literally could do a triple but i am still under on 2lo because i apparently dont snap fast enough) but the more he says it the more my understanding of snapping faster decreases. I hope its not a silly question but if anyone can look at the video (ive linked) and kinda...explain exactly...when/where he means to be faster? i feel like the jump is sitting right there but im doing something/not doing something enough that will allow to be clean. I know a 2lo half-1/4UR after under 2 months is not a long time and i know doubles, especially loop & up take more time, so i am trying to be patient but i am also trying to refine correct technique too.
i feel like when he says snap faster i start to think of rushing and i just dont want to create any unnecessary bad habits because i do want triples!
this one fix i think would fix all of my doubles, as theyre currently all .5 under even tho ive only just started attempting them on the ice (i love doing off ice), but even my 2A off ice are .5 under when i attempt them!

I feel like i have a decent understanding of technique, as i actually started all my doubles on the ice by myself, but my body is lagging behind on catching up. so any tips/advice welcome! especially on ice and off ice tips!
also for those of you doing/coaching/have done double loop, what do you think about/feel when doing a successful loop? im also trying to improve my body awareness
 
Last edited:

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Hi guys. Ive been working on my double loop for over a month and a half now and i feel like its really close but i know i still have a lot to work on. https://www.instagram.com/p/CUoLDLapv8w/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/CUiDqkLFV0-/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

my coach wants me to snap into rotation faster (i literally could do a triple but i am still under on 2lo because i apparently dont snap fast enough) but the more he says it the more my understanding of snapping faster decreases. I hope its not a silly question but if anyone can look at the video (ive linked) and kinda...explain exactly...when/where he means to be faster? i feel like the jump is sitting right there but im doing something/not doing something enough that will allow to be clean. I know a 2lo half-1/4UR after under 2 months is not a long time and i know doubles, especially loop & up take more time, so i am trying to be patient but i am also trying to refine correct technique too.
i feel like when he says snap faster i start to think of rushing and i just dont want to create any unnecessary bad habits because i do want triples!
this one fix i think would fix all of my doubles, as theyre currently all .5 under even tho ive only just started attempting them on the ice (i love doing off ice), but even my 2A off ice are .5 under when i attempt them!

I feel like i have a decent understanding of technique, as i actually started all my doubles on the ice by myself, but my body is lagging behind on catching up. so any tips/advice welcome! especially on ice and off ice tips!
also for those of you doing/coaching/have done double loop, what do you think about/feel when doing a successful loop? im also trying to improve my body awareness
On the take-off, look for the "h" position. You need to hit that position quicker, and snap the leg down quicker (at same time as arms though). everything needs to be organised.
Don't cut any movement short. everything has to be faster, but no movement can be shorter.

Try keep the right shoulder back 1 second longer (not actually one second, but if you think of 1 second it'll likely be 0.1 second).

you also pull out way too soon on the slow mo one. I was sure you had it before you pulled out. You hit tightest position for maybe 0.5 rotations as you are slow to go in, and you start to pull at once hitting moment of enersia. Force your arms to stay in (and leg).
Train landing quickness outside the jump, but don't focus on landing the jump. If you organise takeoff correctly you will stay up, and then automatically land the jump from quick snap training. if you organise takeoff and make it quick, and stay in - then you will rotate and land the jump.
Your arms also drop when you are about to jump, as if you were doing long jump. try to hug instead of dropping them down.

I haven't watched this video, so I do not endorse this advice necessarily, but watch the skaters arm action throughout the loop. never does she drop her arms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNjnBojPmI

If you drop the right arm like you are doing, it will instantly be off-axis and make it hard to land - even if you can rotate it. And almost impossible to land if you can't. You also lose maybe 50% of the power from the right shoulder and arm. That is huge impact on rotation velocity.

Since I am first, I shall also add what everybody else will add and what I should have added at start:
Ask your coach to break it down, and always listen to your coach. We are not there to coach you in person, and we do not know you as a skater or an athlete. It is imperative that you ask your coach for advice on technique, as self-corrections can sometimes be difficult (and result in degradation of technique or injury if not applied correctly). You cannot see yourself, and even if you tape yourself sometimes you need another set of eyes on it.
 

sk8chis

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Try keep the right shoulder back 1 second longer (not actually one second, but if you think of 1 second it'll likely be 0.1 second).

you also pull out way too soon on the slow mo one. I was sure you had it before you pulled out. You hit tightest position for maybe 0.5 rotations as you are slow to go in, and you start to pull at once hitting moment of enersia. Force your arms to stay in (and leg).
Train landing quickness outside the jump, but don't focus on landing the jump. If you organise takeoff correctly you will stay up, and then automatically land the jump from quick snap training. if you organise takeoff and make it quick, and stay in - then you will rotate and land the jump.
Your arms also drop when you are about to jump, as if you were doing long jump. try to hug instead of dropping them down.

I haven't watched this video, so I do not endorse this advice necessarily, but watch the skaters arm action throughout the loop. never does she drop her arms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNjnBojPmI

If you drop the right arm like you are doing, it will instantly be off-axis and make it hard to land - even if you can rotate it. And almost impossible to land if you can't. You also lose maybe 50% of the power from the right shoulder and arm. That is huge impact on rotation velocity.

Since I am first, I shall also add what everybody else will add and what I should have added at start:
Ask your coach to break it down, and always listen to your coach. We are not there to coach you in person, and we do not know you as a skater or an athlete. It is imperative that you ask your coach for advice on technique, as self-corrections can sometimes be difficult (and result in degradation of technique or injury if not applied correctly). You cannot see yourself, and even if you tape yourself sometimes you need another set of eyes on it.
Hi! Sorry delayed response. Something was wrong with my account. anyways thank you for detailed response!! i dj always ask my coach first but some people learn though different ways so i go online in hopes of other people explaining the same concept different ways :)
these are all good point! i do notice what you mean though. i’m trying to force my arms to stay it but i have a bad habit of releasing my left side first. it’s a fix i’ve started working on during off ice but it’s so hard :/ trying not get discouraged and be patient although it’s a battle when everything feels wrong so you can’t tell if you are actually doing it right :/
I did do off ice the other day and i managed to fix the timing of the snap and i got to a clean 1.75. that was the last two but once the timing clicked i made sure to do like 15 to reinforce it. im not sure how to share videos not on instagram links but if you’d like to see them let me know!
i did try them again during off ice but it was back to 1.5, which i know is technically still clean, but the snap timing was still pretty there. i think i was just tired after a long day of work. i’ll keep working on it.
im going to try loops on the ice tomorrow and try to keep in mind some of these!
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Hi! Sorry delayed response. Something was wrong with my account. anyways thank you for detailed response!! i dj always ask my coach first but some people learn though different ways so i go online in hopes of other people explaining the same concept different ways :)
these are all good point! i do notice what you mean though. i’m trying to force my arms to stay it but i have a bad habit of releasing my left side first. it’s a fix i’ve started working on during off ice but it’s so hard :/ trying not get discouraged and be patient although it’s a battle when everything feels wrong so you can’t tell if you are actually doing it right :/
I did do off ice the other day and i managed to fix the timing of the snap and i got to a clean 1.75. that was the last two but once the timing clicked i made sure to do like 15 to reinforce it. im not sure how to share videos not on instagram links but if you’d like to see them let me know!
i did try them again during off ice but it was back to 1.5, which i know is technically still clean, but the snap timing was still pretty there. i think i was just tired after a long day of work. i’ll keep working on it.
im going to try loops on the ice tomorrow and try to keep in mind some of these!
It's also direction of the arm.
Your right arm is going under like its scooping up some ice cream, rather than round like you are hugging somebody. This will throw you off axis and be unstable.
 

gliese

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2020
Country
United-States
It's also direction of the arm.
Your right arm is going under like its scooping up some ice cream, rather than round like you are hugging somebody. This will throw you off axis and be unstable.
It needs to do both. Coming around with no dip downwards (a slight one) causes the opposite problem on loop and flip specifically.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
It needs to do both. Coming around with no dip downwards (a slight one) causes the opposite problem on loop and flip specifically.
True, both directions of movement need to occur for stability. In reality, I don't know the shape to describe it, but probably should have spent more time trying to describe the exact technique. In reality, everything is so hard to convey over typing (back to the ask your in person coach)
 

gliese

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2020
Country
United-States
True, both directions of movement need to occur for stability. In reality, I don't know the shape to describe it, but probably should have spent more time trying to describe the exact technique. In reality, everything is so hard to convey over typing (back to the ask your in person coach)
My coach alwayshad me just jump up normally with no rotation and use my arms to add height with as little force as possible and then would ask me to do the same thing but adding in rotation. For me when I did those exercises off ice, it happened very naturally.
 

gliese

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2020
Country
United-States
I figured out a way to kind of explain it when doing off ice:
Start with your left arm straight out in front of you and the right arm straight behind you. Swing them through at a 45 degree angle so that you reverse the position. Then go back to the first position and try it again but pull into a rotation position at the end.

I don't know if that makes sense. It's such a complex movement.
 

sk8chis

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
I figured out a way to kind of explain it when doing off ice:
Start with your left arm straight out in front of you and the right arm straight behind you. Swing them through at a 45 degree angle so that you reverse the position. Then go back to the first position and try it again but pull into a rotation position at the end.

I don't know if that makes sense. It's such a complex movement.
okay! i will try this! any tips for fixing axis?
 

dorisk8s

Spectator
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
okay! i will try this! any tips for fixing axis?
Keep your head to the right on the takeoff as long as possible. That should help straighten your axis. Commit to your rotation and press your ankles and legs together all the way to the end of your rotation (you are releasing your "squeeze" way too early) and try to do what you can to land on one foot even if it isn't fully rotated at first. Train your mind and body to stay over your right side/foot and keep working on increasing your "snap". You'll get it!
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Keep your head to the right on the takeoff as long as possible. That should help straighten your axis. Commit to your rotation and press your ankles and legs together all the way to the end of your rotation (you are releasing your "squeeze" way too early) and try to do what you can to land on one foot even if it isn't fully rotated at first. Train your mind and body to stay over your right side/foot and keep working on increasing your "snap". You'll get it!
On the subject of ankles, also make sure glutes and core are activated so you aren't broken in the hips as this will result in slow rotation and off axis jumping.

As @gliese stated the arms are big problem in axis, and once you have correct takeoff mechanics axis will be easier to manage
 

sk8chis

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
hi guys!!! sorry delayed response! been a tad busy with work and my coach was out of town for regionals so i haven’t been skating but i got to try loops today!! here’s the videos from today if anyone wants to add any more key points to focus on. https://www.instagram.com/p/CVOVM4NvS0f/?utm_medium=copy_link
been working to land legs crossed, even if i’ll need to seek insurance for my hips later 😅 although today i feel like the height i usually get on loops wasn’t there at all but the rotation was better and i honestly still thought i would land them even more than i do with my bigger ones! not intentionally but just looking at these vs other ones i felt like i was jumping forward more but less up? if that makes sense. but i tried to forget about height since if you rotate fast and good enough, you can still land doubles anyways.

thank you everyone for help and again, a thank you in advance to those who reply!! :)
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
hi guys!!! sorry delayed response! been a tad busy with work and my coach was out of town for regionals so i haven’t been skating but i got to try loops today!! here’s the videos from today if anyone wants to add any more key points to focus on. https://www.instagram.com/p/CVOVM4NvS0f/?utm_medium=copy_link
been working to land legs crossed, even if i’ll need to seek insurance for my hips later 😅 although today i feel like the height i usually get on loops wasn’t there at all but the rotation was better and i honestly still thought i would land them even more than i do with my bigger ones! not intentionally but just looking at these vs other ones i felt like i was jumping forward more but less up? if that makes sense. but i tried to forget about height since if you rotate fast and good enough, you can still land doubles anyways.

thank you everyone for help and again, a thank you in advance to those who reply!! :)
You still have more than enough height for double, but you are not initiating rotation quick enough.
If you notice you take a long time after jumping to the forward until you get in tight. This loses rotation speed as you've lost momentum generated from the takeoff, miss rotation from the wasted time within the air.

Arms never quite get fully tight- you can see bit of air in between them. Ankles aren't perfect, but very improved.

Axis looks much more stable and landable even if rotation isn't there. Rotation can be built, bad axis is a more serious issue when learning doubles. That being said, if you want to gain more height work on both single leg power and leg rotation efficiency (kicking higher into h position and snapping back down into rotation quicker). Do not be tempted to invest upper body energy into building height, as you'll dig down and slow rotation (as well as compromise stability of the jump)

This is just what I've seen from watching couple times, but when I get home later I will do more in depth analysis if somebody doesn't beat me too it.
 

gliese

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2020
Country
United-States
Do not be tempted to invest upper body energy into building height, as you'll dig down and slow rotation (as well as compromise stability of the jump)
I woulnd't say it quite that directly. 10% to 15% of your height does in fact come from your arms. Less if you are not using optimized technique or have weak arms. However, this does not seem to be a problem for OP. She looks strong and seems to have pretty solid arm technique now.

I would just caution against saying that as an absolute.
 

kolyadafan2002

Fan of Kolyada
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
I woulnd't say it quite that directly. 10% to 15% of your height does in fact come from your arms. Less if you are not using optimized technique or have weak arms. However, this does not seem to be a problem for OP. She looks strong and seems to have pretty solid arm technique now.

I would just caution against saying that as an absolute.
Should clarify further:
By upper body energy mainly meant throwing your body into it (as opposed to just use of arms alone). E.g. throwing body down and back up (breaking at hips). Arms can be used to increase height (to an extent), and agree that this skater should not try try increase that significantly or can cause problems.

In reality, I always prefer skaters to use leg power over arms for height (without it becoming inefficient- still use arms a bit).
Generally technique where power comes from leg is more sustainable and leads to greater longevity (not always the case - Hanyu uses lot of arms/upper body in jumps and is going for 3rd olympic medal) but typically skaters who have very long careers like Plushenko, Tuktymusheva (although would prefer she used arms more) have very strong leg based power technique.
 
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