The performances of Wagner and Gold

[actualrealliveanna]

Both women need to figure out how to do 2 clean programs at the GPF/ Worlds. There's no reason in the world they shouldn't have been on the podium in Shanghai instead of Satoko and Radionova except for their poor SPs.

But that's the reason, they both had a pretty nasty SP at Worlds. Had they shown a bit better then, there would be a chance for them to beat Satoko and Elena. Both need to learn how to put out two technically clean (and in Gracie's case, just a whole new approach to both programs in terms of choreography) programs, and once they do, each has a shot at winning a World or Olympic medal!

 

[[email protected]]

Next season will be the "moment of truth". With the expected "dogs' fight" in Russia for 3 spots, with Mao and Satoko in the picture they will have to do something very differently than before so that at least one of them gets to GPF and then they are treated as serious contenders at least for the worlds bronze. I may sound condescending not having a slightest right to be so. I just don't see either of them even close to the podium based on the history and expecting the competion next season much tougher than the last one's.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Next season will be the "moment of truth".

People say the same thing about Mirai, that her next season is the moment of truth, every year. I don't think any of the American ladies are deterred by poor results. Gracie and Ashley are in until the next games and will always have a puncher's shot at medaling. We always think the next season the competition will be tough; at this time last year we thought Julia, Elena and Adelina would sweep everything this season and look how that turned out. The American ladies will do fine if they can just skate a clean SP. It isn't more complicated than that.

 

[Amei]

at this time last year we thought Julia, Elena and Adelina would sweep everything this season and look how that turned out.

But the Russians unlike the US ladies seem to always have someone to step up/in when the one everyone expected to dominate doesn't... In 2013-2014, everyone expected Liza but Yulia stepped up and dominated, it was reverse last year everyone expected Yulia but got Liza instead... The US ladies don't seem to have that.

 

[Sugarpova]

No country bias. We make the best all around skaters here in NA.

no bias at all:yes:

 

[randomfan]

I also think that her jump layout could use some work to make her maximally competitive given her technical ability. The layout should be 1st half: 3Z-3T, 3F, 2A-3T; 2nd half: 3Z-1/2 Loop-3S, 3Lo (not sure if she can add in another 2A without Zayaking).

There are some things wrong with this jump layout:
1) I've always heard that you need 7 jumping passes and even with a 2A this one's only 6.
2) If you do a triple-triple, a 2A-3T and a _-Half Loop-3F/3S in a single program then you're forced to do a random double for the final jumping pass that won't get you a lot of points. It would be fine if it was a combo (like 2A-2T but that would exceed the 2A limit so it won't work).
3) This may not be a big problem, but no one in the field is trying or (the way I remember it) have ever tried the 3Lz-Half Loop-3S combo because it's too hard. The closest was Polina's 3F combo but only because she's pretty consistent now. Also her flip isn't even on the correct edge most of the time.

At this point, I think Gracie just needs to start being more focused. Both she and So Youn Park have spectacular jumps but they both struggle with consistency. Meanwhile, as a new Ashley fan, I feel slightly annoyed because the judges like to concentrate on her jumps much more than the others. Like Mao, it's either completely clean or severely underrotated. If Ashley's jumps stop looking flawed, then maybe the judges will be less strict on calls and give more GOEs.

And like many people say, they both seem to falter in the big competitions, losing to the younger skaters. With Mao making her comeback, they need to start working on controlling nerves during a competition since it causes problems - inconsistency for Gracie and two-footing/underrotating for Ashley.

 

[Jammers]

Gracie has been her own worst enemy. One measly international win since turning Senior with her talent is :shocked: The fact that she couldn't even win the SB in SLC twice with virtually no competition outside her own teammates says a lot.

 

[Globetrotter]

Gold is technically the only American with the natural skills to outjump, out spin and out skate the Russian tsarinas. Her weakness is really her poor competitive nerves. Wagner is mentally tough and works the hardest to make up for her lack of natural talents. Unfortunately, I always felt her biggest technical weakness is her relatively poor edge work. She is a good performer but her SS is really very mediocre and the TR and flow out of jumps are definitely lacking. It really looks like many of the Russians do not have the strong SS skills the likes of Kostner and Mao but they sure know how to perform and fight through the tough competitions. Gold currently has some of the best SS, I can think of only Miyahara having matching good bladework but the latter does not jump big and her small build lends a smaller ice presence. It does not matter that Gold and Wagner having the best packaging or lines, under CoP scoring, the technical big elements and the nerves to deliver under pressure is more important. While some people may not agree, I am bias towards the strong jumpers and tough competitors rather than beautiful performance, lines and extensions. It is a sport afterall, not Bolshoi theatre. The American skating scene is too much on packaging and overall choreography - think Kwan, Cohen, Yamaguchi. However, this is going to be less smart points wise under the present CoP scoring.

 

[sabinfire]

Gold is technically the only American with the natural skills to outjump, out spin and out skate the Russian tsarinas. Her weakness is really her poor competitive nerves.

Gold cannot outscore Tuktamysheva without a 3A, unless Liza has a rare disastrous performance -- though that scenario is more likely to be seen with Gracie. Mental toughness cannot be underestimated. The combination of solid technique combined with the belief you can win is nearly unstoppable, especially in this current field of ladies.

Now, with potentially two ladies out there with 3A jumps (and naturally high PCS), any PCS Gracie would receive would not be enough to overcome the technical deficit if everyone skates clean.

Overall, I agree that Gracie seems to be the best hope of the U.S ladies right now, if she can put it all together... would definitely be worthy of the podium.

 

[jagragold]

Do you know which music has Gracie in her new programs?

 

[Jammers]

Gold cannot outscore Tuktamysheva without a 3A, unless Liza has a rare disastrous performance -- though that scenario is more likely to be seen with Gracie. Mental toughness cannot be underestimated. The combination of solid technique combined with the belief you can win is nearly unstoppable, especially in this current field of ladies.

Now, with potentially two ladies out there with 3A jumps (and naturally high PCS), any PCS Gracie would receive would not be enough to overcome the technical deficit if everyone skates clean.

Overall, I agree that Gracie seems to be the best hope of the U.S ladies right now, if she can put it all together... would definitely be worthy of the podium.

If Tuk can't land the 3A then her advantage over Gracie is gone especially if Gracie starts being more consistent. I can't think of much that Tuk does better then Gracie other then being consistent which is of course the name of the game.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If Tuk can't land the 3A then her advantage over Gracie is gone especially if Gracie starts being more consistent. I can't think of much that Tuk does better then Gracie other then being consistent which is of course the name of the game.

Well, "other than being consistent" as you said is the name of the game. I would say Liza performs better than Gold and engages the audience more - but obviously consistency = confidence = crowd engagement. Liza also has the proper edges on her jumps. Her consistency has also led to a rise in her PCS - even though I think there's nothing special about her choreography and not a significant improvement in her skating skills over the course of last season.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Tno one in the field is trying or (the way I remember it) have ever tried the 3Lz-Half Loop-3S combo because it's too hard.

Chartrand does it. Although hers is very weird to watch... like, she lands the lutz and then at the last second decides to do the smallest half-loop ever and go up into the 3S.

I'm sure Pogorilaya could do the half loop 3S after her lutz. IMO, it's much harder to execute a 3S out of a 3L (note how many skaters lose speed on the landing of the 3L, which is Ashley's issue), so it's kinda interesting to see Pogo/Rad attempt it and with usual success.

 

[randomfan]

Chartrand does it. Although hers is very weird to watch... like, she lands the lutz and then at the last second decides to do the smallest half-loop ever and go up into the 3S.

I'm sure Pogorilaya could do the half loop 3S after her lutz. IMO, it's much harder to execute a 3S out of a 3L (note how many skaters lose speed on the landing of the 3L, which is Ashley's issue), so it's kinda interesting to see Pogo/Rad attempt it and with usual success.

Oh yeah I forgot about Alaine Chartrand
As for Anna, it's probably best for her not to do it even with her good lutz because it's not like her salchow is just as consistent as Radionova's salchow.

Edit: And also, Alaine's 3Lz-1Lo-3S combo tends to get dinged with URs so it's not too consistent either.

 

[qwerty]

Gracie's programs are Tango SP, Firebird LP, according to TSL

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Gracie's programs are Tango SP, Firebird LP, according to TSL

We have all asked Gracie to move away from princessy programs, and she has. I'm excited to see the result!

 

[Amei]

Gracie's programs are Tango SP, Firebird LP, according to TSL

Well the upside is that they on the surface don't appear to be 'I'm a pretty princess' routines (again) - however, they are the same general feel/style (IMO) for both programs... Do they have something against variety???

 

[moriel]

Actually curious to see Gracie performing a tango... Although imho it has some disaster potential.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well the upside is that they on the surface don't appear to be 'I'm a pretty princess' routines (again) - however, they are the same general feel/style (IMO) for both programs... Do they have something against variety???

Tango and Firebird are quite different...(although maybe not with the kind of choreography we see these days)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Although imho it has some disaster potential.

High disaster potential but in the long run, challenging herself to perform different types of programs will help her find her signature style.