The year teenage girls blew up figure skating

[flanker]

I don't either. But my guess is that they are referring to 2011, when Tuktamysheva, Sotnikova and Lipnitskaya all made their Senior debut at international level.

Because that was what triggered the conveyor belt of teenage girls coming through that we have had ever since.

It really was the start of a revolution that has all but swept away the old order.

CaroLiza_fan

Look at the readable text:

A group of teenage girls have turbocharged the sport officially known as ladies skating, landing quadruple jumps that were off-limits for decades and in quantities that are already up there with the very top male skaters.

It’s either spectacular, or terrifying. It’s definitely youth sports gone mad.

Russian Alexandra Trusova landed two quadruple...

Tuktamysheva, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya, huh?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Look at the readable text:

A group of teenage girls have turbocharged the sport officially known as ladies skating, landing quadruple jumps that were off-limits for decades and in quantities that are already up there with the very top male skaters.

It’s either spectacular, or terrifying. It’s definitely youth sports gone mad.

Russian Alexandra Trusova landed two quadruple...

Tuktamysheva, Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya, huh?

OK, I get it. I picked up on the wrong things from those couple of sentences that are visible to everybody.

Mind you, it would be nice if Liza could do a quad...

CaroLiza_fan

 

[lariko]

It’s really is all Kurt Browning’s fault. Plus, the day they add min height requirement for ladies, i’m gonna campaign that all male skaters were built like Nicolas Nadeau. None of that under 5’3” business and 25” waistlines. I’m not sure what would be an acceptable shoulder span, but i’ll come up with something, no biggie. All in the interests of safety too.

 

[flanker]

Weight or height limits/categories in figure skating are - dubious. Are there such limits in sprint, pole vault, high jump etc.? No. I understand it in combat and contact sports, but not in individual sports like this.

 

[Princessroja]

And yet, the WSJ could take a short trip down the street, visit the dancers of the ABT (many of them 14 and 15) and see what REAL lifelong damage is.

Ah ha! This is my field, so I'll chime in. Even ABT's studio company doesn't allow dancers under 16. Dance can indeed be hard on the body, but professional ballet has already had its reckoning with health. The field has been changing rapidly for the last 20 years or so in terms of body compositions, age of going on pointe, medical care, and so on, and it's not uncommon for people to retire into their 40s. While there are absolutely unsafe practices in some training studios, especially competition studios, those are pretty widely condemned at this point. I expect the field will continue to change over the next decade or so until it's virtually unrecognizable from the "baby ballerina" era early last century.

The equivalent would be skaters not being allowed to start jumps until 11 or 12, not start competing until 16-18, and our Olympic medalists being in their late 30s. A professional dancer having their career from 13 to 16 is absurd, and a 20-year-old principal at a major company is considered as skyrocketing through the ranks, yet a 20-year-old skater is already "past their peak" in ladies skating.

Dance might be off-topic, but since katymay brought it up, I do think it's a good example of a field that has the potential to be extremely unhealthy and has been reckoning with that for some time, IMO in a way that has made serious changes (though there are many still to go). Skating should learn from its example.

 

[Mathman]

It’s really is all Kurt Browning’s fault. Plus, the day they add min height requirement for ladies, i’m gonna campaign that all male skaters were built like Nicolas Nadeau. None of that under 5’3” business and 25” waistlines. I’m not sure what would be an acceptable shoulder span, but i’ll come up with something, no biggie. All in the interests of safety too.

The reason Kurt Browning could do it is not because of his waistline or shoulder span. It's his ankles! His ankles are so big and muscular that as a boy he had to wear bellbottoms to cover them up. :yes::

https://s1.dmcdn.net/v/Joyse1Oww2onfv1XS/x1080

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Interesting Brian Boitano brings up the shortening of male skater's careers, Boyang and Nathan are still young, but Yuzu has multiple quads and is still on top, so I'm not sure if Brian B is right there.

Yuzu has also missed time with injuries. A fall on a practice 4Lz almost caused him to miss the Olympics (and he missed that entire season after the fall aside from the Games). Just because he's skating well now doesn't mean he isn't bothered by nagging health issues every day, or that the damage he's already done to his body won't negatively impact his quality of life in 5 or 10 years.

 

[RobinA]

=== “Once they reach puberty and their body changes…I don’t know,” said Evelyn Kramer ====

So many people say "I don't know..." in this matter yet asking or sometimes demanding the ISU to interfere and "prevent".

The "I don't know" refers to their ability to do these jumps. There is this persistent misunderstanding about what some of us object to with this emphasis on revolutions. It's not the jump itself, it's what you have to do to your body to be able to do that many revolutions. Eating disorders are rampant in figure skating and have been for some time. There's no "I don't know" about whether this is harmful. The more revolutions the more disordered the ways of keeping a small body. That's not OK with some of us.

 

[mrrice]

Tara won worlds at 14 and the Olympics at 15 so this is not anything new. Tara's 3L 3L was considered huge at the time.

 

[katymay]

Ah ha! This is my field, so I'll chime in. Even ABT's studio company doesn't allow dancers under 16. Dance can indeed be hard on the body, but professional ballet has already had its reckoning with health. The field has been changing rapidly for the last 20 years or so in terms of body compositions, age of going on pointe, medical care, and so on, and it's not uncommon for people to retire into their 40s. While there are absolutely unsafe practices in some training studios, especially competition studios, those are pretty widely condemned at this point. I expect the field will continue to change over the next decade or so until it's virtually unrecognizable from the "baby ballerina" era early last century.

The equivalent would be skaters not being allowed to start jumps until 11 or 12, not start competing until 16-18, and our Olympic medalists being in their late 30s. A professional dancer having their career from 13 to 16 is absurd, and a 20-year-old principal at a major company is considered as skyrocketing through the ranks, yet a 20-year-old skater is already "past their peak" in ladies skating.

Dance might be off-topic, but since katymay brought it up, I do think it's a good example of a field that has the potential to be extremely unhealthy and has been reckoning with that for some time, IMO in a way that has made serious changes (though there are many still to go). Skating should learn from its example.

Good to know there have been reforms. I had a roommate in college that left home to train with the ABT at 14. (This was many years ago-I'm old) The damage to her body from nonstop training, dieting, etc. was bad. She had company pictures in which all of the young ladies were grotesquely underweight. She could only wear sandals with socks because her feet were mangled for life. (And yeah, skates do the same thing over time, but not as badly as toe shoes) . I would enjoy ballet just as much if the women danced in ballet flats like the men, and I hope to see that happen in my lifetime.

 

[lariko]

The reason Kurt Browning could do it is not because of his waistline or shoulder span. It's his ankles! His ankles are so big and muscular that as a boy he had to wear bellbottoms to cover them up. :yes::

https://s1.dmcdn.net/v/Joyse1Oww2onfv1XS/x1080

My point is that nobody is knocking down the male figure skaters for not exactly representing an average male form or not looking virile enough. This was in response to the article saying that okay, so Tursynbaeva is 19, so technically you can’t call her quad pre-pubescent, but she is 4’8” so still not kosher.

But fine, now I’ll look at everybody’s ankles and correlate them with quad-capacity.

 

[moonvine]

If anyone is really dying to read it WSJ is having a sale, today only, 2 months for a buck.

 

[Mathman]

Tara won worlds at 14 and the Olympics at 15 so this is not anything new. Tara's 3L 3L was considered huge at the time.

Tara suffered permanent damage to her hips from too many repetitions of the loop jump. At the time it was reported that Tara was so strong-willed that she kept on doing them in practice even after her coach told her, "stop, that's enough." Tara's mom had to come out and drag her off the ice. (I don't know if this is really true, but that was the scuttlebutt.*)

Yuna Kim stopped jumping loops in the latter half of her career, and so did Michelle Kwan (after 2004) when the jump started taking its toll.

---------

* OK, I looked up "scuttlebutt" to make sure I was using the word right. A scuttlebutt is a drinking cup or water fountain on board a ship. Hence, scuttlebutt = rumors exchanged around the water cooler."

 

[readernick]

Ah ha! This is my field, so I'll chime in. Even ABT's studio company doesn't allow dancers under 16. Dance can indeed be hard on the body, but professional ballet has already had its reckoning with health. The field has been changing rapidly for the last 20 years or so in terms of body compositions, age of going on pointe, medical care, and so on, and it's not uncommon for people to retire into their 40s. While there are absolutely unsafe practices in some training studios, especially competition studios, those are pretty widely condemned at this point. I expect the field will continue to change over the next decade or so until it's virtually unrecognizable from the "baby ballerina" era early last century.

The equivalent would be skaters not being allowed to start jumps until 11 or 12, not start competing until 16-18, and our Olympic medalists being in their late 30s. A professional dancer having their career from 13 to 16 is absurd, and a 20-year-old principal at a major company is considered as skyrocketing through the ranks, yet a 20-year-old skater is already "past their peak" in ladies skating.

Dance might be off-topic, but since katymay brought it up, I do think it's a good example of a field that has the potential to be extremely unhealthy and has been reckoning with that for some time, IMO in a way that has made serious changes (though there are many still to go). Skating should learn from its example.

So, I guess the question is...What motivated these changes in the ABT? Was it rule changes? Public pressure? What specific lessons could fs learn from dance?

 

[Mathman]

Here's what I think. Are we witnessing a true "revolution" in figure skating, or just more of the same old same old? As has been amply pointed out, there have always been infant phenomena in skating.

But 2019 could very well be the year that ladies figure skating changed fundamentally and permanently, all in an instant. It might be that Alina Zagitova in 2018-2019 will be the last ladies' world champion that didn't have a quad. It might be that (as is the case of men's skating) from now on you will have to present multiple quads even to get within sniffing distance of a major podium. And it might be that going forward, dozens and dozens of 13-year-old girls will step up to the new challenge.

 

[moonvine]

Here's what I think. Are we witnessing a true "revolution" in figure skating, or just more of the same old same old? As has been amply pointed out, there have always been infant phenomena in skating.

But 2019 could very well be the year that ladies figure skating changed fundamentally and permanently, all in an instant. It might be that Alina Zagitova in 2018-2019 will be the last ladies' world champion that didn't have a quad. It might be that (as is the case of men's skating) from now on you will have to present multiple quads even to get within sniffing distance of a major podium. And it might be that going forward, dozens and dozens of 13-year-old girls will step up to the new challenge.

That would make things terribly boring to watch (for me at least). Others will find it more exciting I'm sure. I'm about ready for them to add figures back in. (Yes I know this will never happen)

 

[Princessroja]

Good to know there have been reforms. I had a roommate in college that left home to train with the ABT at 14. (This was many years ago-I'm old) The damage to her body from nonstop training, dieting, etc. was bad. She had company pictures in which all of the young ladies were grotesquely underweight. She could only wear sandals with socks because her feet were mangled for life. (And yeah, skates do the same thing over time, but not as badly as toe shoes) . I would enjoy ballet just as much if the women danced in ballet flats like the men, and I hope to see that happen in my lifetime.

Ohhh yes, things have changed a lot since then. Training can still be very intense in places and eating disorders still do exist. But the desired aesthetic has changed, bringing a major shift in training and nutrition, and the emergence of dance science as a field has made a big difference to dancers' safety as well. Are you sure your roommate was with ABT? ABT's school, JKO, was only established in 2004, but SAB has been around a long time. SAB/NYCB are... not the healthiest environments I can think of, even today.

So, I guess the question is...What motivated these changes in the ABT? Was it rule changes? Public pressure? What specific lessons could fs learn from dance?

I can't speak to ABT specifically because I know little other than that they have a reputation as being a reasonably healthy company (and certainly very good technically)... at least from what I've heard. There are no rules in ballet to change, and I don't think public pressure has played much of a role, if any. AFAIK it's all been from within the field. I'm sure part of it is society's generally changing aesthetic from very very thin to a sporty/muscular look, and the general increase in scientific and nutritional knowledge since the '90s.

IADMS, the International Association of Dance Medicine and Science, is the org devoted to dance medicine advances. I've had several teachers and friends go to their conferences (and it's a goal of mine someday to go also). There's a TON of research happening between professional companies/universities and healthcare professionals, which has helped to change training practices, as has the rise of wholistic cross-training like Pilates, yoga, Gyrotonics, etc. I think the general shift in pedagogy towards student-centered learning has trickled in too, and the shift in collaborative choreography where dancers are expected to have a voice.

But by far the biggest difference I think is just the focus. Prepro ballet training does just that, prepare you for a long career in dance. You're expected to continue to grow as an artist, and it's the artistry as much as your technique that will give you a long and respected career. It's not about getting the next best trick down; there are no triple axel or quads that will bounce you into the highest ranks. It's just you, as a whole artist. Jason Brown would be the closest example I can think of focus-wise and training-wise.

There seems comparatively little health research devoted to skaters. IMO the best thing would be to develop partnerships between universities and the larger skating rinks... Detroit, Montreal, LA, and Boston would be good ones, and U of Florida and the Florida training centers, or UCCS and the rinks in CO Springs. Serious long-term studies. Cross-training in things like Alexander Technique and Feldenkrais so skaters learn how to move efficiently and with as little effort and tension as possible. Focus on nutrition--we've all heard some pretty appalling things from skaters about their nutritional practices, and it's wholly unnecessary.

But dance isn't a competition, it's an art. There's a lot of companies and a lot of places (well, compared to skating), and it's a big field where most people can find some kind of place. Skating is a sport and only one person wins. There's only three people going to worlds, max, from this country, and far fewer career opportunities in the sport once you're retired at 20-25ish. By contrast, ABT and NYCB *alone* with their second companies are well over 200 people... and there's at least 10 other companies like them, and that's only the first tier of high quality ballet companies alone... in the US alone. Skating has very different goals and pressures than ballet (and definitely very different than dance in general).

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Tara suffered permanent damage to her hips from too many repetitions of the loop jump. At the time it was reported that Tara was so strong-willed that she kept on doing them in practice even after her coach told her, "stop, that's enough." Tara's mom had to come out and drag her off the ice. (I don't know if this is really true, but that was the scuttlebutt.*)

Yuna Kim stopped jumping loops in the latter half of her career, and so did Michelle Kwan (after 2004) when the jump started taking its toll.

---------

* OK, I looked up "scuttlebutt" to make sure I was using the word right. A scuttlebutt is a drinking cup or water fountain on board a ship. Hence, scuttlebutt = rumors exchanged around the water cooler."

Right, this is freaky. I heard the word "scuttlebutt" for the first time on a quiz show yesterday! :shocked: (OK, so strictly speaking it was actually last Tuesday's episode of "The Chase". But I only watched it yesterday).

And then a few hours later, you use it on here!

Who says there's nothing spooky about Hallowe'en?

CaroLiza_fan

EDIT: In case you are wondering, this was the question:

Which of these words means gossip or rumour?

• Scuttlebutt
• Shufflebum
• Stumblebottom

​

How everybody managed to keep a straight face during this question I will never know! Like, Bradley Walsh (the presenter) is notorious for corpsing whenever questions like this come up.​

 

[zounger]

Here's what I think. Are we witnessing a true "revolution" in figure skating, or just more of the same old same old? As has been amply pointed out, there have always been infant phenomena in skating.

But 2019 could very well be the year that ladies figure skating changed fundamentally and permanently, all in an instant. It might be that Alina Zagitova in 2018-2019 will be the last ladies' world champion that didn't have a quad. It might be that (as is the case of men's skating) from now on you will have to present multiple quads even to get within sniffing distance of a major podium. And it might be that going forward, dozens and dozens of 13-year-old girls will step up to the new challenge.

Zagitova the Chingachgook of triples (-3A) . You never know maybe Rika or Alena can win with just triples...

 

[moonvine]

I ponied up the $1 for 2 months. Some parts that struck me are as follows: Tom Z says the ladies doing quads can do them because they are "very strong." I mean...if that's the case and that's the answer...why can't all ladies do off ice training to become "very strong." What is it about these ladies that make them stronger than the other ladies?

A professor at UT Austin who is an expert on growth, maturation and youth sports says he is worried about the effect of skating on health, particularly training a bunch of quads when the body is still developing, particularly in the feet. He says they are still children, not miniature adults, and skating should change to accommodate the needs of the child.

Hope this paraphrasing is ok.