Theoretical Top Score for a Ladies LP with only regular Triples | Golden Skate

Theoretical Top Score for a Ladies LP with only regular Triples

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
Russia
Let's say someone can get +5 GOE on everything and max PCS. How competitive can they be? You might think 3 "Triple-Triple" combos is the best way to go, right?

2A = 4.95 points
3F = 7.95 points
2A = 4.95 points
2Lz = 3.15 points
FCSp4 = 4.8 points
CCoSp4 = 5.25 points
3Lz+3Lo = 14.83 points
3Lz+1Eu+3S = 14.72 points
3F+3T = 13.1 points
StSq4 = 5.85 points
ChSq = 5.5 points
FCCoSp4 = 5.25 points

Tech Score: 90.3 points, PCS: 80.0 points, TOTAL SCORE: 170.3 points

But wait! Let's look at a jump layout with only 1 Triple-Triple combo:

2A = 4.95 points
3S = 6.45 points
3F = 7.95 points
3Lz = 8.85 points
2A+3Lo = 11.47 points
3F+2Lo+2Lo = 12.22 points
3Lz+3T = 14.06 points

Along with the spins and footwork, this would earn a Tech score of 92.6 points, the highest possible without harder jumps. Doing 3 Triple-Triple combos hurts your score! Even doing 2 Triple-Triple combos hurts slightly, because using a 2A+3Lo combo is how you maximize the score, since this combo removes the smaller GOE bonus of the 2A and instead applies the 3Lo bonus. More realistically, the 2A+3T is also better because of the GOE factoring.

How about a realistic program with no Triple-Triple at all? For example, something that would fit well for Karen Chen:

2A+3T = 9.6 points
3F = 7.95 points
2A+3T = 9.6 points
3Lo = 7.35 points
3Lz+2T+2Lo = 12.74 points
3Lz = 8.85 points
3S = 6.45 points

Add all the other elements and it's 89.19 in Tech score, barely below a program with 3 backloaded Triple-Triple combos.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
Russia
Has anyone attempted 2A+3Lo combo recently? I've only ever seen one person do it in competition I think.

2A+3Lo would be stunning looking if well executed, very floaty.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Has anyone attempted 2A+3Lo combo recently? I've only ever seen one person do it in competition I think.

2A+3Lo would be stunning looking if well executed, very floaty.
Recently recently? No. But:
FS​
'11 4CC​
60.94​
57.14​
FS​
'10 全日本ジュニア選手権​
56.79​
42.24​
FS​
'10 全日本選手権​
54.41​
45.52​
FS​
'07 World​
43.24​
38.51​
FS​
'07 Euro​
37.17​
42.72​
source: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=result :p

Also, I think Zagitova?

Medvedeva: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=075ukxO81Ys
 

bubblecherry

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 20, 2018
Recently recently? No. But:
FS​
'11 4CC​
60.94​
57.14​
FS​
'10 全日本ジュニア選手権​
56.79​
42.24​
FS​
'10 全日本選手権​
54.41​
45.52​
FS​
'07 World​
43.24​
38.51​
FS​
'07 Euro​
37.17​
42.72​
source: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=result :p

Also, I think Zagitova?

Medvedeva: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=075ukxO81Ys
Evgenia trained it but ditched it for 3s3lo after it didn’t go well in competition.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpX7IqslYSL/?igshid=1e7nhvt1nsjxx
 

cohen-esque

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Really, though, this is just a demonstration of the IJS being a weak system that turns skating into a numbers game with no real relation to what happens on the ice. It succinctly demonstrates the downsides of %GOE, I guess.

I mean a skater could literally go out and lay down seven triples in combination in the second half of the program, repeating both lutz and flip, and they'd score two points lower.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
Russia
Karen Chen landing that layout and getting 169.19 points at Beijing is 100% my dream

Probably the realistic upper limit is like +4 GOE on the 2A+3T's, solo 3Lz, 3Lo, and spins/footwork, +3 GOE on the 3Lutz combo and 3S, and +1 on the 3F. And maybe 72 PCS if there is enough lobbying for her. That would be a total of 154 points.
 

gliese

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2020
Country
United-States
I mean a skater could literally go out and lay down seven triples in combination in the second half of the program, repeating both lutz and flip, and they'd score two points lower.
That would be two 3-3 and a 3-3-3, correct (unless I'm being stupid)?
3Z-3T
3Z-3Lo
3S-3Lo-3T
Best I can come up with.

Edit: ignore me I forgot about flip.
 

lurkerghost1

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Let's say someone can get +5 GOE on everything and max PCS. How competitive can they be? You might think 3 "Triple-Triple" combos is the best way to go, right?

2A = 4.95 points
3F = 7.95 points
2A = 4.95 points
2Lz = 3.15 points
FCSp4 = 4.8 points
CCoSp4 = 5.25 points
3Lz+3Lo = 14.83 points
3Lz+1Eu+3S = 14.72 points
3F+3T = 13.1 points
StSq4 = 5.85 points
ChSq = 5.5 points
FCCoSp4 = 5.25 points

Tech Score: 90.3 points, PCS: 80.0 points, TOTAL SCORE: 170.3 points

But wait! Let's look at a jump layout with only 1 Triple-Triple combo:

2A = 4.95 points
3S = 6.45 points
3F = 7.95 points
3Lz = 8.85 points
2A+3Lo = 11.47 points
3F+2Lo+2Lo = 12.22 points
3Lz+3T = 14.06 points

Along with the spins and footwork, this would earn a Tech score of 92.6 points, the highest possible without harder jumps. Doing 3 Triple-Triple combos hurts your score! Even doing 2 Triple-Triple combos hurts slightly, because using a 2A+3Lo combo is how you maximize the score, since this combo removes the smaller GOE bonus of the 2A and instead applies the 3Lo bonus. More realistically, the 2A+3T is also better because of the GOE factoring.

How about a realistic program with no Triple-Triple at all? For example, something that would fit well for Karen Chen:

2A+3T = 9.6 points
3F = 7.95 points
2A+3T = 9.6 points
3Lo = 7.35 points
3Lz+2T+2Lo = 12.74 points
3Lz = 8.85 points
3S = 6.45 points

Add all the other elements and it's 89.19 in Tech score, barely below a program with 3 backloaded Triple-Triple combos.
It's quite a realistic layout for Karen actually. But I think her PCS was hurt here because the judges did not see her doing a 3-3 (that shouldn't happen according to the rules but it does), so I would still do her 4CC layout last year with the 3Lz+1Eu+3S. Yes it's actually 3/10ths lower in max TES score but I think the PCS boost would be worth it
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
Russia
I don't think 3Lz+1Eu+3S will do anything to improve the PCS, particularly when it's just getting a < call. I don't ever see that combo being reliable for her. Whereas the 2A+3T is quite majestic, she has a wonderful axel.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Let's say someone can get +5 GOE on everything and max PCS. How competitive can they be? You might think 3 "Triple-Triple" combos is the best way to go, right?

2A = 4.95 points
3F = 7.95 points
2A = 4.95 points
2Lz = 3.15 points
FCSp4 = 4.8 points
CCoSp4 = 5.25 points
3Lz+3Lo = 14.83 points
3Lz+1Eu+3S = 14.72 points
3F+3T = 13.1 points
StSq4 = 5.85 points
ChSq = 5.5 points
FCCoSp4 = 5.25 points

Tech Score: 90.3 points, PCS: 80.0 points, TOTAL SCORE: 170.3 points

But wait! Let's look at a jump layout with only 1 Triple-Triple combo:

2A = 4.95 points
3S = 6.45 points
3F = 7.95 points
3Lz = 8.85 points
2A+3Lo = 11.47 points
3F+2Lo+2Lo = 12.22 points
3Lz+3T = 14.06 points

Along with the spins and footwork, this would earn a Tech score of 92.6 points, the highest possible without harder jumps. Doing 3 Triple-Triple combos hurts your score! Even doing 2 Triple-Triple combos hurts slightly, because using a 2A+3Lo combo is how you maximize the score, since this combo removes the smaller GOE bonus of the 2A and instead applies the 3Lo bonus. More realistically, the 2A+3T is also better because of the GOE factoring.

How about a realistic program with no Triple-Triple at all? For example, something that would fit well for Karen Chen:

2A+3T = 9.6 points
3F = 7.95 points
2A+3T = 9.6 points
3Lo = 7.35 points
3Lz+2T+2Lo = 12.74 points
3Lz = 8.85 points
3S = 6.45 points

Add all the other elements and it's 89.19 in Tech score, barely below a program with 3 backloaded Triple-Triple combos.
And some people still say that this system rewards too much difficulty over quality.....

And RIP the idea that a program with 3-3s is far superior to a program without one. Even in the previous system, Miyahara was beating Medevedeva's BV with two 2A+3T while Medevedeva had two 3-3s.
 
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GarthAqua

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 14, 2018
3Lz and 2A3T have higher GOEs than 2A + 3Lz3T
but triple-triple cpmbo usually means stronger jumping abilities so the best jumpers always have at least one 3-3 combo rather than two 2A3T.

I'm curious about any other skater would like to try 2F or 3F in the second half of the combo. It's only been performed by one skater. With that, you can have higher BV.
 

Jeanie19

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Country
United-States
3Lz and 2A3T have higher GOEs than 2A + 3Lz3T
but triple-triple cpmbo usually means stronger jumping abilities so the best jumpers always have at least one 3-3 combo rather than two 2A3T.

I'm curious about any other skater would like to try 2F or 3F in the second half of the combo. It's only been performed by one skater. With that, you can have higher BV.
Which skater?
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
Russia
I'm curious about any other skater would like to try 3F in the second half of the combo. With that, you can have higher BV.

half-loop+3F combo doesn't provide any real benefit unless you are already doing so many difficult jumps in your program that you can't fit both the 3F and 3S. In every other situation, it's only a .1 base value increase IF doing that combo in the second half of the program and having a solo 3S in the first half. Even then, you need to be doing the 3F on the back of 2A (rather than something like 3Lz+1Eu+3F), or else you just lose out with GOE.

Here is the highest possible scoring jump layout someone could do with eu+3F combo in a 7-Triple program.

2A = 4.95 points
3S = 6.45 points
3F = 7.95 points
3Lz = 8.85 points
2Lz+3Lo = 10.15 points
2A+1Eu+3F = 12.66 points
3Lz+3T = 14.06 points

It's worth .88 less than the best jump layout, which has +2Lo+2Lo instead.

half-loop combos are bad in these maximized 7-triple jump plans because they force you to include a low .5 value element. In terms of realistic value, they are only worth it if a skater has trouble doing +2T+2Lo (or +2Lo+2Lo) as their 3-jump combo, or if skater has trouble with other +3(x) combos and can do the eu+3(x) consistently.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
I wonder if any high profile already had a planned 2F or 2Lz in the free skate. It might worth it BV and GOE wise but judges probably expect more.

I mean a skater could literally go out and lay down seven triples in combination in the second half of the program, repeating both lutz and flip, and they'd score two points lower.
The only way is with Dimitriev's 3L3F which would get negative GOE. They would have to repeat 3T and 3lo to make it work. The hardest content would be.
2A
2Lz
2A
2F
--------
3lz-3Lo-3Lo
3F-3T
3S-3T
 
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