Toeloop Help - Am I toe-waltzing?

ayyteee

Spectator
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
3
Hi all! I'm a beginner adult skater (been skating for a little over a year now), currently working my toeloop. Yesterday when working on it, I was able to record my attempts for once, and now I'm overthinking my entire jumping technique.

What exactly constitutes a toe-waltz or toe-axel? I know toe-assisted jumps, especially the flip and lutz, should have little to no prerotation, but I'm seeing conflicting things regarding the toeloop? Prerotation, as I understand it, is doing part of the revolution on the ice instead of taking off backwards. But sometimes when I attempt to look at slow-mo of competitive skaters doing toeloops, they do seem to be facing forward when their pick leaves the ice?

Here's what my toeloop looks like (CW skater): LFI three-turn, right foot picks behind my left, a little crossed, and a little angled to the right (the direction I'm turning, not completely straight back). Left leg swings through and my heel lifts off the ice last as it crosses my body. My body turns a quarter turn / half turn, and THEN my picking foot leaves the ice, when it's already facing forward. Perform the rest of the jump in air and then land backwards.

Am I toe-waltzing? My coach had originally said as long as I'm swinging my left foot through, I'm doing a proper toeloop, and she's never commented in practices that I'm toe-waltzing, but I don't know if I picked up some bad habits since then when trying to get more height. I know my 3-turn is fairly curved and swing-y going into the jump, and maybe that's why I'm already spinning so much on the ice, so maybe I need the entry curve to be straighter?

I'll definitely ask my coach at my next lesson too, but wanted to ask y'all here as well. :)

Thanks so much for any help!
 

Snorlax

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Jan 19, 2020
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I don't know much about jumping techniques, but I bet one of the pros around here would like to see the recorded video as it might be a million times easier to analyse this over written descriptions. If you are okay with posting it on here of course. I'm sure some of the pros might also be happy with a private message.
 

bunnybarista

If I risk it all, could you break my fall?~
On the Ice
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May 27, 2018
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Definitely go by what your coach says! Most adults do a toe-waltz until/unless their coach cracks down on the incorrect technique. Here is a helpful video that not only shows you how the jump is done, but points out common mistakes in slow motion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxbKjnPmv_c&t=107s

Good luck! I toe-waltzed for about the first 6 months of learning the jump and then one day the draw-through just clicked for me! :)
 

1111bm

Final Flight
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Dec 31, 2016
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680
Not an expert, but my impression is that one shouldn't focus too much or solely on upper body position. From what I've seen different skaters open up their body in the direction of rotation (or pre-rotate their upper body, if you will) to varying degrees, some more some less, on all toe-assisted jumps.

I've always felt that the way you pick and vault yourself up is more important, to achieve the desired mechanics on a toe jump, so to speak.

So I'd focus on a nice, quick tap and 'up' vault to avoid toe-waltzing. Because you can bring your heel through the correct way and still end up ultimately toe-waltzing, if you stay on your toe pick for too long after picking in, turn on it and only then push off of it. You can see the same thing on beginner Flips and Lutzes too.
 

cl2

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
551
Definitely go by what your coach says! Most adults do a toe-waltz until/unless their coach cracks down on the incorrect technique. Here is a helpful video that not only shows you how the jump is done, but points out common mistakes in slow motion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxbKjnPmv_c&t=107s

Good luck! I toe-waltzed for about the first 6 months of learning the jump and then one day the draw-through just clicked for me! :)

Wow! I didn't know Oleg is still making these videos! I used to love watching the instructional videos he made with former partner Ksenia Ponomaryova. Glad to see that he's still at it!
 

Silver Ice

Rinkside
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Feb 13, 2018
Messages
95
Can't really answer if you are toe-waltzing from the description, but for me there is a pretty distinctive rhythm of pick/pivot/jump when I do it correctly as opposed to when I toe-waltz.

Every time I've taken a break from jumping or skating for a few weeks or am working on putting the toe in combination, that rhythm is missing and I do more of a toe-waltz until I get the rhythm down.

I know this isn't really all that helpful to whether or not you're doing a proper toe-loop, but I think you can see a bit of that rhythm or timing in the video that bunnybarista posted. Recognizing the feeling of that timing made all the difference for me when I started doing them properly a few years ago.

But yeah your coach will definitely be your best bet in figuring out if you're toe-waltzing or not.
 

ayyteee

Spectator
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
3
Thanks for all the input, folks! :) Definitely going to talk to my coach about it on my next lesson.

I'm still a bit confused on what constitutes a toe-waltz/toe-axel, and how much your picking foot can rotate on the ice beforehand. For example in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LgY0eEsluQ&feature=youtu.be&t=62, it seems like her picking foot does turn almost a half rotation before it leaves the ice, but it does seem like it's a proper toe-loop?
 

hanyuufan5

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May 19, 2018
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Not that rotating on your toe pick excessively is a good thing, but I think toe-waltzing is more a matter of upper body rotation and when your non-picking foot leaves the ice. My other foot is off the ice almost immediately after I pick in. I get pretty good distance, so when my picking foot leaves the ice depends on how much room I have. More crowded=more prerotation for me. :slink:
 

silver.blades

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Jan 4, 2007
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Some pre-rotation on the toe-loop is normal (my issue as a skater was the complete lack of pre-rotation). The toe axel happens when your picking foot is facing forwards when you take-off. Think of a waltz jump take-off. As long as non-picking foot passes the picking foot before the body is facing forward, it's not a toe axel.

That said, if your coach hasn't mentioned that any thing is wrong with your toe technique I wouldn't worry about it. Don't over think things and trust that your coach will tell you if you need to fix anything. That's what you're paying them for.
 
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