US and Eurosport commentators disagree on Mao and Yu-Na

[kandidy]

I prefer no commentators.
They are human and they expressed their thought doesn't mean you have to agree with them. I am one who always disagree on their opinion.
Listen to Japanese commentators praised Mao's underrotated triple axel as a perfect landing, or Dick's delighted to see Kimmie doesn't stick her free leg in the air when she does spiral.

Better not listen to them and use your own jjudgement whether the performance is good or not.

 

[Zuranthium]

Eursport seems to be only concerned with a skater's jumping ability. I have never seen a video where they have mentioned the quality of a skater's spirals or spins.

Wow, then you need to watch more of them?

British Eurosport is definitely the best there is out there right now for figure skating coverage. They don't over-talk, they are absolutely the most objective, their voices are appealing, they have endearing quirks, and Chris is excellent at explaining the technical side of everything.

Dick Button kept on ranting how poorly Lambiel skated his long program, and how he could not understand why Lambiel pumped his fist for such a 'poor' performance. Even Kurt Browning had to politely remind him it's 'not such a bad performance'. When the scores came up, it just made poor Dick look even more silly.

You can watch this clip here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i14uW5JCNBQ

BTW, Dick's comment that Lambiel suddently became an 'artist' this year was also quite bizarre. It makes you wonder whether he's having some memory problem. (Lambiel suddently became from a good technician to a good performer?? suddently converted from a teenager into a romantic performer this year??? Dick, give me a break...)

Indeed. Dick often makes comments that are simply...wrong.

His thoughts about a skater's posture and positions are sometimes useful, however he goes on about it too much. WE can tell when a skater is an obviously bad position. It doesn't need to be talked about constantly.

The American commentaries have WAY too much talking in general and it greatly hinders the viewer's ability to observe/enjoy the performances.

~Z

 

[carolinefan177]

Actually, I have seen many Eurosport versions.

 

[Zuranthium]

Personally, I like the British version better because they don't overemphasize the mistakes (flutz, two foot, fall, bad stretch, wobbly spiral, uncentered spins, etc). What they do is they praise the good qualities of the skater. I heard them say that Yu-na will no doubt be a future world champion but they said the same thing about Mao because both of them really have the qualities of a world champion or olympic champion. Honestly, there is no disagreement. What I can see is Dick Button's obvious preference for Mao and you know when he likes a skater, he is very vocal about it.

Yes, indeed. The original idea of the thread that the British guys prefer Yu-Na is not valid, imo. They are easily the most objective of ANY commentating team out there and they have raved about both skaters. Yu-Na's Short Program received more praise because she was simply BETTER than Mao at this competition.

~Z

 

[carolinefan177]

sigh...

Where do you think Mao would have placed had she landed the triple loop in her combination Zuranthium?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Dick, imo, who favors the lyrical style would choose Mao even if she fell on her face.

It's not that Dick favors the lyrical style, imo, but that he favors stretch and extension over musical expression. Yu-Na was more lyrical than Mao in the long program.

Dick often has insightful (and hilarious) criticisms, but his obvious biases can border on annoying. Some of his comments this past few seasons has left me confuzzled.

 

[Zuranthium]

Where do you think Mao would have placed had she landed the triple loop in her combination Zuranthium?

2nd, right behind Yu-Na. It could have been 1st but Mao's spins in this particular performance were also not her best. Even with those imperfections, though, I personally would have placed Mao 4th, in front of Kimmie. I don't think Mao's combo should have taken a 3 point deduction, that's a silly rule, and Kimmie's 3-3 was overgraded as well since the 3Toe is not an actual Triple Toelooop.

I do think that Yu-Na was overscored in her presentation marks and also the GOE of her Spiral. But it was clearly the best of the night. If both Mao and Yu-Na skated their best, I would put Mao ahead in both the SP and the LP (although for the LP I would most definitely be giving Yu-Na the higher presentation marks...Mao would just barely squeak ahead because of the Triple Axle).

~Z

 

[carolinefan177]

<3

I'd have to say I'd agree with you! I take back the eurosport thing...i watched some more...

 

[Gabriella Robin]

I prefer British Eurosport. They always have something nice to say, don't overemphasize mistakes (as einna said), and don't talk a lot throughout the performance. Dick Button has favorites and not-so favorites, and he never shuts up during the performances!! Well, none of the American commentators shut up during the performances.

As for the Mao vs Yu-Na, I personally prefer Yu-Na because to me, she has the complete package. Mao never expresses herself during her programs, and it's all about jumps.

I agree with you:yes: I don't like extreme criticism commentary. I think most skaters may prefer Eurosports commentators. Talkative commentators are not good for figure skating commentary.

I liked both Mao and Yu-Na last year, but now prefer to Yu-Na because of her beatiful programs. Unfortunately, Mao seems to think about only jumps(Triple Axel) in her mind. She is persistantly attached to her jumps, I hate it.

 

[oleada]

I prefer the Eurosport commentators. I would be thrilled it they commentated for ESPN as well! Dick and Peggy are noticeably biased in favor of certain skaters, which I don't like, and they focus too much on the negative parts. Chris, Nicky, etc. are much more positive and they have a nice chemistry (lol). They are fun to listen too.

I liked both Mao and Yu-Na last year, but now prefer to Yu-Na because of her beatiful programs. Unfortunately, Mao seems to think about only jumps(Triple Axel) in her mind. She is persistantly attached to her jumps, I hate it.

It does seem that way, when she misses her triple Axel, her performance falls apart (like at Skate America and Junior Worlds 06). She said in an interview that she'd like to get a quad for next season, but I'd just wish she would focus more on getting a full set of triples.

 

[z4mboni]

I think both ESPN and Eurosport commentaries have their good and bad points.

I like the Eurosport guys because they try usually try to be positive about skaters. However they often show that they aren't as knowledgeable about figure skating as Dick. They /praised/ Oda for changing his solo 3A into 2A-3T combo and in result having 4 combos in LP, while it was a mistake that cost him a lot of points.

Dick often has insightful (and hilarious) criticisms, but his obvious biases can border on annoying. Some of his comments this past few seasons has left me confuzzled.

I've got to agree with that. He often criticizes some skaters very harshly. Then the next skater comes with just as bad spin/spiral/whatever and I think "Now she/he has it coming..!", but Dick... praises her/him instead for "sophisticated position", or whatever.
The thing that amused me the most was that he said that the fact that Miki started landing her jumps consistently does not mean that everyone will start to consider her a World medallist material. And she turned out to be not only a World medallist, but a World Champion. Oh the irony! I laughed about this for days.
He can be quite funny and insightful at other times. Some of his expressions I will remember for years to come. ("boys just aren't as supple..." or comparing Oda's jumps to honey and molasses )

I don't agree that they were in any way negative about Mao. "Superhuman talent", "timing is unbelievable", "she can't put a foot wrong" - sounds like nice compliements to me.
Stating that Mao's LP lacked the maturity of Kim was stating a fact - Czardas is not as sophisticated a piece of music as Lark Ascending. But I don't think that it is necessarily a bad thing. Personally I like skaters who are not afraid to skate the programs appropriate for their ages.

I love both of the skaters, although personally I prefer Mao - she seems more of a whole package and is more versatile. What I love in her is that she improves VERY rapidly and in every performance I see she improves something - better flexibility, a new spin, improved speed, improved expression... Her post-Worlds performances of Nocturne and OtR were exquisite. Every position she hits is picture perfect.

I agree that at the beginning of this this season she was lacking a bit when it comes to facial expression in the LP. But there are two things to remember: firstly, she has a one hell of a difficult program technically. She lost her 3A during the off-season because of a growth spurt and was struggling to get it back AND add the steps before the take-off; plus she was working on including 3T again in her programs. 3F-3L and 3Lz-2L-2L at the very end of a program are quite demanding as well. I think that, in a way, the first competitions in the season were more like a training before Worlds than like actual competitions. She struggled a bit with the elements - spirals were extremely well extended, but she had a bit strained, concentrated expression while doing them, spins were not as fast as they are now. One coult see that those are new elements she is still working on. Now that she is more comfortable doing them, she is a /lot/ more expressive.
Secondly, Czardas or Habanera are not exactly the pieces of music which encourage YuNa-like expression. If you search on Youtube for some clips, you'll see that the singers/dancers express the music more with body movements that with facial expression.

She is persistantly attached to her jumps, I hate it.

Now that is just silly. She wants to land her jumps, obviously - 3A is her trademark jump and she doesn't want to doisappoint the audience by not landing it - but this year she improved more in other areas of skating than in jumping. And she cares VERY much about being "whole package". When asked what kind of skater she wants to be in the future, she replied: "I want to be a perfect skater, with perfect power of expression, perfect jumps, perfect spins."
Also, when asked about YuNa, she said "I'm happy to have such a wonderful rival. In order not to lose against her when it comes to presentation, I'm going to resume by ballet training."

I think she already resumed it - in her latest performances one can see a very strong influence of ballet in the moves she executes. Also, I heard that in her newest commercial she plays a ballerina.

2nd, right behind Yu-Na. It could have been 1st but Mao's spins in this particular performance were also not her best. Even with those imperfections, though, I personally would have placed Mao 4th, in front of Kimmie. I don't think Mao's combo should have taken a 3 point deduction, that's a silly rule, and Kimmie's 3-3 was overgraded as well since the 3Toe is not an actual Triple Toelooop.

I agree with you. Altough its sort of difficult to say how Mao would skate had she landed the 3L clearly - she was obviously distressed by not landing it (I though she was about to burst in tears during the arabesque) and I think it might have ifluendced the rest of her performance. Actually, I was impressed that she skated as well as she did - usually if she missed a jump this season the rest of the performance didn't go well at all.

 

[La Rhumba]

But I don't think British Eurosport is completely oblivious to aspects of skating outside jumping. After all, their greatest claim to fame in skating is Torville and Dean, to whom they compare all performance in regard to presentation.

Um... Really? Torvill [no e] & Dean competed first time round before Eurosport began broadcasting, though Chris Howarth competed alongside them in the GB Team, and Simon Reed started commentating on skating for ITV [the commercial channel in the UK] in 1982, coming to Skating with no background in the sport.

When T&D had their comeback in 1994, Chris Howarth openly criticised their FD for being "staid" - a comment which Chris & Jayne heard in their hotel room when the highlights were rebroadcast. I seldom hear them comparing any skater's presentation to that of T&D.

IMO whilst Howarth's ability to explain the technicalities of Figure Skating is very good [which you'd expect as a Coach] his knowledge of Ice Dance is limited. I prefer the Europeans coverage when Nicky Slater [1983 European Bronze Medalist] joins him for commentary whilst Simon is away commentating on the Aussie Open Tennis. We then get some expert coments on the CDs and various FD styles in a critical, but analytical way, and he's not afraid to say who he would have on the podium, and who should've won each section of the event. Also great praise, in an excited way, for those who deserve it, an example being his swooning for Carolina Kostner's Euros Gala performance, which was stunningly beautiful. BTW occasionally he does mention T&D to illustrate a choreographic point or relay an anecdote, as he competed alongside them for years, and is a Judge on their Dancing on Ice TV show.

Come Worlds, Simon is back, and he seldom watches competitive skating outside of this one big event per year. He also usually commentates on the Oberstdorf New Year's Gala, and this past season, the 4CC's Gala.

Last year he described Kimmie's LP as "the greatest ever". He's a man who gets totally blown away by jumping - full stop. His fave event is the Men's - purely for the jumping - however in a Gala he is often moved by a very artistic mature performance [he comes from a showbiz family - late brother actor Oliver Reed, their uncle was the great film director Carol Reed].

Chris Howarth is currently Coaching and Managing a rink in the Chicago suburbs, so these days he knows more about the American skaters than the European ones.

I mention these potted bios of the British Eurosport commentators, as it's clear that some posters don't know anything about them or their backgrounds. Chris, like Dick, is an ex-skater, though nowhere near of the same oustanding calibre in his day.

I'm aware that this post is getting away from the main theme, but just to say, if I had to endure the endless talking through each skater's performance, all over the music so you can barely hear it, I'd have given up watching years ago. :no:
We actually had an experiment here on Channel 4 [UK] during coverage of the British Nats many moons ago of *no* commentary at all, implemented by the Head of Sport who happened to be an American working in the UK, and the public vote *yes or no to commentary* was very split, just marginally in favour of commentary by about 3%, but the TV Presenter still described it as "an emphatic vindication for commentators".

 

[doubleaxel]

Also, when asked about YuNa, she said "I'm happy to have such a wonderful rival. In order not to lose against her when it comes to presentation, I'm going to resume by ballet training."

I am glad to hear that Mao is starting to take some interest in her presentation. The funny thing is, though, that Yu-Na herself has never taken ballet . . . :yes:

 

[morninglight]

French Commentary

Mao Worlds LP (French)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axa6rS5Sd2U

I thought these commentators merriest people in the world They sound like uncles and aunt cheering up their little niece. I am not very good at French; but it seems that they maintain the "go Mao, go" attitude throughout the performance. They clap their hands, exclaim when she missed 2A-3T, comment on how cute she is, discount mistakes etc etc.

Are they always like that????

 

[hockeyfan228]

We actually had an experiment here on Channel 4 [UK] during coverage of the British Nats many moons ago of *no* commentary at all, implemented by the Head of Sport who happened to be an American working in the UK, and the public vote *yes or no to commentary* was very split, just marginally in favour of commentary by about 3%, but the TV Presenter still described it as "an emphatic vindication for commentators".

 

[carolinefan177]

Awww!

I Love the French Commentary! How sweet!

 

[morninglight]

Her calmness works perfectly for Chopin. But it doesn't at all for Czardas. If you want to do bravura music, you need to have the drama to really express it.

I just watched Katarina Witt's Olympic performance with the same music for the first time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkN9UFS3a2I) to compare with Mao's LP at Worlds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OihZAtrfhGk). I am somewhat surprised to find myself for equally liking both because I had a presumption that Katarina would have been a much more mature artist than Mao is now. But I got similar impressions from both performances. I have no idea how old Katarina had been at that time; but both performances are kind of cute, youthful, happy, and full of energy and having graceful lines at the same time.

But I still feel that Czardas was not the kind of music that best accentuates Mao's artistry. That music was really busy, whereas Chopin accentuated her smooth skating and graceful line.
I acknowledge that trying a different kind of music would help a skater to grow. And it might be (ideally) the best if a skater could skate to ANY type of music. But realistically speaking, I don’t think it anything bad to select the music which best suits his/her style. Especially, it is extremely important to establish good repetitions of skaters’ artistry early in their career because of the subjective nature of PCS marks. Once people decide that a skater is not artistic, it is very difficult to reverse such a presumption.

When Mao skates her free program, Eurosport praises it, but mostly for her jumping ability, saying that she does not have the maturity of Yu-Na or even Miki.

Regarding maturity, I think that both Miki and Yu-na may be indeed more mature than Mao. Miki is three years older than Mao and has started to behave like an adult with professional responsibility, rather than a student. Mr. Morosov also tried his best to give her a womanly package, which he believed to be her advantage in comparison to the other 'girls.' Yu-na also sounds to be more mature than her actual age as I hear her interviews. Mao is also very mature in the way she deals with all the pressures and I really respect that. At the same time, however, she seems to be surprisingly innocent, honest, and straightforward (in a good way) for her age when I hear her speak. I don't think girls like Mao and Kimmie need to skate to programs that require voluptuous grace or nuanced emotions like Yu-na and Miki did, when they can charm the audience with their delightful freshness.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for the two Czardas performances side by side. Katarina Witt was 18.

I think Mao's version of the music is quite a bit faster, plus she has to sustain the pace for a longer time. I felt like Mao was rushing to keep up, rather than settling into a groove and letting the elements come to her.

 

[morninglight]

Thanks for the two Czardas performances side by side. Katarina Witt was 18.

I think Mao's version of the music is quite a bit faster, plus she has to sustain the pace for a longer time. I felt like Mao was rushing to keep up, rather than settling into a groove and letting the elements come to her.

You are welcome Yeah, it's really fast. The fastest part where the music circulates would fit with footsteps on the ground, but not skating on the ice. Yet it may go well with presentation of spins over and again, too.

Ms. Katarina Witt looked so cute and fresh, and so much different from more recent performances of hers that I know of as legendary.

 

[mizu_iro]

You are welcome Yeah, it's really fast. I feel that the fastest part where the music circulates would fit with footsteps on the ground, rather than skating on the ice. But it may go well with presentation of spins over and again, too.

Ms. Katarina Witt looked so cute and fresh, and so much different from more recent performances of hers that I know of as legendary.

Ivanova's SP at 1985 Worlds also has Czardas in it...I think her version's music may be even more frantic than Mao's.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YTJ4BcRldAc

The thing that I felt didn't work for Mao about Czardas is that every move she does is so soft, so smooth. As you put it, Czardas is frantic music. Even the violinist uses aggressive, short, accentuated spiccato strokes when playing the piece, and Mao doesn't quite have that kind of sharpness to her skating.

Hopefully her new programs will suit her better.