What makes music cuts good or bad?

Rashela

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
I believe there are no people left on the planet who, at least in general terms, do not know about twilight, vampire mania and all this nonsense. Therefore, it will be enough to read “Twilight” and everyone will understand the general meaning of what is happening (well, except for the 95-year-old grandmother Gretta blindly squinting at her black and white TV, but I think this is insignificant).

And of course the costume.

Yeah, but it still makes the songs they chosen a bit random. If she is portraying an innocent girl turning into a vampire, they should use a song from Breaking Dawn also, but there are using only Twilight and New Moon songs when Bella was still fully human.
Even that everyone knows in general terms what Twilight was about, it was nearly a decade ago, when it was a big thing. Nowadays from a girl her age you would expect that she would want to skate to songs from The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina or Stranger Things, but not Twilight.
But she enjoys it so it's what really matter. :biggrin:
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
What comes to selecting and arranging the music - in figure skating, I think, it is always done with the eye firstly on the technical layout. The music supports the movement and not the other way around

That's 100 percent true. And it's why for me, it all depends on the skater, and whether ... and also how ... they're linking music and movement. The skaters I respond to are the ones who link movement and music together through emotions, moving through their emotional response to the music. Then they transfer those emotions to me. That's why transitions (which used to be called "the in-betweens") are so important.

When I think ( or feel) that a skater's just going through the motions, it doesn't work. The choreographer can put all the links and subtleties in the program, but the skater has to understand it, perhaps only intuitively, and feel the music and the connections.

I usually just feel my way through the music, as it relates to movement, when I'm watching figure skating. I don't do the kind of analysis in this thread .... but the discussion is very interesting.

However, there are times when the choreographer's and the skater's skills weave together something that rises above the usual run of the mill competition program and the whole becomes greater than just jumps and spins put together with enough steps and turns in between.

Torvill and Dean's Bolero. When he was choreographing it, Christopher Dean worked with an arranger. Their intent was to get a coherent, holistic piece. They'd made their choice, but they couldn't get it down to the time limit. They were both too stubborn to accept that, and after a while of struggling with this, Dean found a detail that "saved" them. The timing of the program begins with the instant the skater's skate moves on the ice. So Chris choreographed that opening where they're both on their knees, and he lifts Jane. They didn't have to cut another 10 or 15 seconds.

An important element of this story, for me, is that he refused to compromise the musical integrity. Then a solution emerged ... through the passage of time, study, and intuition, and perhaps most importantly, the desire to find a way through that satisfied all the skaters' needs.

The typical program in those days, as I remember it, was sort of like a musical composition in three movements, usually having little to do with each other. First there was a substantive first movement to give weight to the skaters bag of technical tricks. Then a slow movement for the skater to catch her breath will gliding around looking pretty. Then a spirited presto -- the dash to the finish (just the ticket for fast spins).

Exactly. Well said. And because audiences knew this, they understood what was going to happen and could just sit back and enjoy, allowing the skater to take them on the journey.
 

Ulrica

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2018
Why should profesional musicians opinion matter when this is not a music competition? They are more qualified (than most of the people on this forum) because they watched (while commentating on) all of POTO programs in last 20 years at least, apart of being skaters themselfes and involved in skating many many years for now! And they were commentating on the idea behind the program specificaly, not just on Alina's skating, and you can see for yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_3ePjhYCyI - 'fabulous compilation of that music, great edit', 'well done guys who put that music together and the overal structure', 'that was masterfully done', and they also explained why they think that.

That it's just their opinion, the fact that they have watched a lot of programs over the years does not give them any "qualification" regarding music, as they not have any knowledge in this area aside from the fact that they have watched a lot of programs. That would be akin to saying than an opera fan of many years has any sort of qualification to judge the usage of an opera piece on a program, or to judge an opera piece on any level at all, it's a fallacy.

Anyway, like I implied on my first comment, one cannot really judge the usage of music cuts objectively, music is art and art is subjective. We can strip down the technicalities of the music used and judge that, but we would need a more profound knowledge of music to do so and it would have nothing to do with the program itself.
 

Orlov

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Yeah, but it still makes the songs they chosen a bit random. If she is portraying an innocent girl turning into a vampire, they should use a song from Breaking Dawn also, but there are using only Twilight and New Moon songs when Bella was still fully human.
oh come on! :) who cares what songs were there "when Bella was still fully human"! :laugh: you need to be a complete fan of this nonsense to pay attention to such things :biggrin: I think there will be a small number of such viewers. I think most, like me, remember only the general idea - l'amour and glamorous luminous vampires :biggrin: I start this thread just said that this nonsense is made with high quality and professionally. But, yea, honestly, I am calm about this program - it's just teenage girlish nonsense. But this is cute girlish nonsense :) Look how she jump in StSq, or look at her face - girl enjoys it :) And it's most important.
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
If we are talking about music cuts, I would trust a professional musician's opinion more than I would the B ESP guys, who, God love them, like almost everybody:biggrin:

Which is in fact why I like to listen to them, none of this, oh my gawd, 85 quads, so much better than everyone else, for our B ESP guys. They find the wonder in everyone, almost like Ted B. :agree:

I can't with four cuts of unrelated music in a program, it reminds me of the bad old days of 70s ice dance before Torvill and Dean. But that's just my opinion :)
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
That it's just their opinion, the fact that they have watched a lot of programs over the years does not give them any "qualification" regarding music, as they not have any knowledge in this area aside from the fact that they have watched a lot of programs. That would be akin to saying than an opera fan of many years has any sort of qualification to judge the usage of an opera piece on a program, or to judge an opera piece on any level at all, it's a fallacy.

Anyway, like I implied on my first comment, one cannot really judge the usage of music cuts objectively, music is art and art is subjective. We can strip down the technicalities of the music used and judge that, but we would need a more profound knowledge of music to do so and it would have nothing to do with the program itself.

It is really pointless to argue. The same as i found many opinions on the subject pointless. I'm pretty sure that most of the people would appriciate opinion of expirienced British Eurosport commentators more than your opinion, or mine, or random opinions of random people on the skating forum. Like i think it is more valuable for the subject to quote their opinion, instead to present mine (which may be complitely different). Again, this is not a music competition to ask for professional musicans for their opinion. In figure skating, music is only in service of figure skating elements. Without that, music is pointless. And they explained exactly why that music arragment is good, because it's helping some skater to skate and present herself better.
 

el henry

Fangirl of men’s spirals and split jumps
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Country
United-States
It is really pointless to argue. The same as i found many opinions on the subject pointless. I'm pretty sure that most of the people would appriciate opinion of expirienced British Eurosport commentators more than your opinion, or mine, or random opinions of random people on the skating forum. Again, this is not a music competition to ask for professional musicans for their opinion. In figure skating, music is only in service of figure skating elements. Without that, music is pointless. And they explained exactly why that music arragment is good, because it's helping some skater to skate and present herself better.

But I'm pretty sure "most people" wouldn't. That's my opinion.

It's your opinion that "most people" would; that's your opinion.

And you are right, no one ever wins in a battle of opinions:biggrin:
 

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
It sure can be done tastefully and succesfully, blending more songs together, but it should feel like a remix, rather than collage.

In general you are right, a theme, refrain needs some 'sustain' in time duration to make itself felt as the core of the program.

in theory and by laws of copyright, you are probably allowed to cut a collage, but not to remix the original music source, esp. music from movies, if you have access to the individual recored instruments and vocal tracks in the first place. Most classical pieces are in the public domain by now, their composer's copyright having expired long ago. And there are scores in musical notation available too.
Perhaps if you are really so inclined and both musically and technically versed, you can have the music recorded into a pro music production program by skilled session keyboardists, and 'mix' a new score from those parts using the computer, just like a composer does when he composes a piece. Then play the midi back with high quality sound samples to generate the program's music?

I recall from an interview there are sound technicians available to Khrustalniy to do music cuts etc. But I will not put it beyond Gleikhengauz to do lots of cutting and ordering, collage-ing himself on his laptop.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
But I'm pretty sure "most people" wouldn't. That's my opinion.

It's your opinion that "most people" would; that's your opinion.

And you are right, no one ever wins in a battle of opinions:biggrin:

It is not a battle of opinions tho because i didn't present mine. It only can be about a people who are close minded to listen different opinions of people who are very probably more educated in figure skating than they are. I'm not saying that everybody should think like them, i've just presented their opinion, so i don't see a point to reply to me at all. You can try to reply to them instead tho :biggrin:
 

VenusHalley

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2018
That's 100 percent true. And it's why for me, it all depends on the skater, and whether ... and also how ... they're linking music and movement. The skaters I respond to are the ones who link movement and music together through emotions, moving through their emotional response to the music. Then they transfer those emotions to me. That's why transitions (which used to be called "the in-betweens") are so important.

When I think ( or feel) that a skater's just going through the motions, it doesn't work. The choreographer can put all the links and subtleties in the program, but the skater has to understand it, perhaps only intuitively, and feel the music and the connections.

I usually just feel my way through the music, as it relates to movement, when I'm watching figure skating. I don't do the kind of analysis in this thread .... but the discussion is very interesting.

In a way, I think musicality of a skater shows the best if they make a mistake - a skater with sense of music is immediately able to catch on and improvise until they are able to carry on with the designed choreo. A hard working skater with lack of ability to feel the music may have moment of skating on top of music, or rushing to do all the movements....

Like Sasha's programs are well designed, that she jumps on the beat, because the choreo tells her to do so and it is drilled in through lots of hard work. But I remember seeing video of 3As dancing off the ice and Sasha was just... bit awkward. I think she is able to overcome it because she has well designed programs... well... at least programs that work for her. I actually found her first junior year programs kinda awful... she had the elements, but it was just not it. This soundtrack gimmick seems to be working for her so far.
 

neud

Match Penalty
Joined
Dec 6, 2018
It 's simple.
If Danny's skater use several tracks in a program - say "the cut is bad".
If Danny's skater use one track in a program, and it is not Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Grieg or Muse - say "music is awful/inappropriate"
If it's none of above-mentioned - say "choreography is cluttered/rushed/empty".
If it's none of above-mentioned, and skater is not Kostornaia - say "SS/crossovers/posture/interpretation are afwul".
If it's Kostornaia - say "the cut is bad".
 

VenusHalley

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2018
Yeah, but it still makes the songs they chosen a bit random. If she is portraying an innocent girl turning into a vampire, they should use a song from Breaking Dawn also, but there are using only Twilight and New Moon songs when Bella was still fully human.
Even that everyone knows in general terms what Twilight was about, it was nearly a decade ago, when it was a big thing. Nowadays from a girl her age you would expect that she would want to skate to songs from The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina or Stranger Things, but not Twilight.
But she enjoys it so it's what really matter. :biggrin:


The thing is how would you possible interpret Bella? I mean, in a way, if Alëna skates blandly and is boring, you could give her 10 for interpretation, because she got Bella just right. If she falls, you can say "well, Bella was supposed to be CLUMSY!"
Partially kidding, but eh, so far not liking this program and it being Twilight makes it harder for me to like it. I am not against young girls skating to young people's music... but this is just not doing it for me and i worry it might hurt her with the judges.
 

Rashela

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
The thing is how would you possible interpret Bella? I mean, in a way, if Alëna skates blandly and is boring, you could give her 10 for interpretation, because she got Bella just right. If she falls, you can say "well, Bella was supposed to be CLUMSY!"
Partially kidding, but eh, so far not liking this program and it being Twilight makes it harder for me to like it. I am not against young girls skating to young people's music... but this is just not doing it for me and i worry it might hurt her with the judges.

Well, at least she can skate it with one facial expression because, if I remember correctly, through the whole series Kristen Stewart looked like she was smelling a rotten cheese. I would prefer, if they throw away the piano part, ditch the Twilight plot and just make it as a bad*** female vampire program.

I don't see this program being a hit with judges, most of them are too old to be twihards. But I can be wrong, I hated last year H/D FD and they won GPF...
I would wait until IdF if she can beat Wakaba's Poeta and Kaori's Matrix on PCS with this program. Maybe we will be all surprised.
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
I don't see this program being a hit with judges, most of them are too old to be twihards. But I can be wrong, I hated last year H/D FD and they won GPF...
I would wait until IdF if she can beat Wakaba's Poeta and Kaori's Matrix on PCS with this program. Maybe we will be all surprised.

Somehow, people always forget that PCS is not about what do you like more. It's just an evaluation of predefined skaters skills at one point of time. Judges can personaly not enjoy Twilight or Matrix program as they are enjoying some other programs. That doesn't mean their judging of components would be much worse (or better otherwise).
 

labgoat

Keeper of the Pull Arabians
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Country
United-States
I do not have any qualifications to discuss the work of Gleichenhaus. But I can remember way back in the day before they had any real technology for preparing music for skating. Choreographers had to do the best they could with big, clumsy reel-to-reel tape recorders and the like.

The typical program in those days, as I remember it, was sort of like a musical composition in three movements, usually having little to do with each other. First there was a substantive first movement to give weight to the skaters bag of technical tricks. Then a slow movement for the skater to catch her breath while gliding around looking pretty. Then a spirited presto -- the dash to the finish (just the ticket for fast spins).

If the music didn't come out to the right length they would just skip or repeat a few bars to make it fit. Once in a while choreographers would go out on a limb and select, say, something from Carmen that was not Habanera just to wake up the audience -- hey, what's that, I thought she was going to do Carmen!

I was quite willing to suspend critical judgment. It all sounded fine to me. Nowadays, with the technology at our disposal, anyone can patch different songs together seamlessly. Gleichenhaus has his own has his own style and vision. Plus, he has the luxury of working with young performers of immense talent and teachability. It's all good.

Programs were set up this way because of the following:

1. Open big, bold and fast - be overwhelming
2. The rules say show a change of pace and mood, add in a rest break. The more dramatic the change the better - even more so in ice dance of the times.
3. Show off your stamina in part 3 and make sure to include at least one big jump here to fulfill the balanced program requirement. Aim to get the crowd clapping and yelling so as to bette influence the judges to give you higher artistic marks.

Am I just jaded or on the mark or cranky?
 

Mathman

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Programs were set up this way because of the following:

1. Open big, bold and fast - be overwhelming
2. The rules say show a change of pace and mood, add in a rest break. The more dramatic the change the better - even more so in ice dance of the times.
3. Show off your stamina in part 3 and make sure to include at least one big jump here to fulfill the balanced program requirement. Aim to get the crowd clapping and yelling so as to bette influence the judges to give you higher artistic marks.

Am I just jaded or on the mark or cranky?

On the mark. The points you make are just what they were aiming for. I think that is a good summary of why the programs worked so well. :yes:
 

Mathman

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It is not a battle of opinions tho because i didn't present mine.

I don't have any ax to grind here, but you did state your opinion that "most of the people would appriciate opinion of expirienced British Eurosport commentators more than your opinion, or mine, or random opinions of random people on the skating forum."

E Henry's opinion is that most people would not appreciate the opinion of the Eurosport guys any more than they would appreciate your opinion or mine. (Especially mine. ;) )

So, yeah, a difference of opinion about how much interest "most people" have in what the Eirospot guys have to say, and how much weight to attach to it.

If you want my opinion -- I am not sure what most people appreciate. So I have to remain neutral on the question. :)
 

Baron Vladimir

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Sorry, but that doesnt make sense. To value more opinion of somebody random rather than more objective person who have confirmed expirience with the subject.
 

Mathman

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Sorry, but that doesnt make sense. To value more opinion of somebody random rather than more objective person who have confirmed experience on the subject.

Well, you have just expressed your opinion about what makes sense and what doesn't make sense.

My opinion is that what I wrote does make sense.

But I did not express an opinion on whether people should value the opinion of the Eurosport guys or not, much less on whether I value their opinion or not. I have no opinion abut that.

-- um, never mind. ;)
 

zounger

Medalist
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
As much people trying to convince me here that Alina's POTO cuts or program was bad, I have the opposite opinion of the majority. I think the program and cuts (not the technical part of mixing two audio files) was fine. This program was build and was attacking all 5 PCS components and succeeded multiple times. Starting from IN, PE to CO, TR and SS (this one less than the others).
 
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