Why don't single ladies skaters do 3S as solo jump for short programs?

MrMC18

Spectator
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Hey all, this is a question I've had for a long time. I've always thought that doing triple salchow as the solo jump would help a lot of ladies skaters who get penealized for flutzing/lipping, yet most of them usually either go for 3Lo or just choose to get penealized for doing a 3F/3Lz on the wrong edge. For example, Mao Asada would often go for the 3F-3Lo combo in her short program bc she struggled w the 3T, yet she would do the 3Lze and get an edge deduction rather than go for 3S as a solo jump. Another example would be Gracie Gold, who sometimes got lip calls and struggled with the 3Lo, yet she just went for the 3F anyway instead of doing a triple sal. Is it not allowed or do skaters not want to go for it bc it has a low bv?
 

IndiaP12

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 29, 2018
Well, it’s just too low base value. There are a couple that do, so unless they can only do 3 triples everyone does 3Lo/3F/3Lz
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
In Juniors, there is a required solo jump and the rules specify which one it is. This solo jump rotates between loop/lutz/flip and not sure if there is any order.
Last year it was the loop, this year it is the lutz.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think some skaters see it as worth the risk to do the 3F or 3Z instead of the 3S. Often they only have an edge issue with just one of the jumps (i.e. either their lutz or flip has a clear edge), so then they do that and a 3L. If they can't do a 3L, then they might be forced to do a 3S.

A 3S was actually one of Mao's least favourite jumps, and she was much more comfortable going for the 3F+3T/3L/2A, 3F+3L/3A/2A, 3F+2L/3L/2A short program layouts.

There is also a perception that if you do a salchow instead of a flip or lutz, your program is inherently easier, so that could temper your PCS scores because you are perceived as playing it safer/easier than others who do go for the harder jumps.
 

Harriet

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Country
Australia
Hey all, this is a question I've had for a long time. I've always thought that doing triple salchow as the solo jump would help a lot of ladies skaters who get penealized for flutzing/lipping, yet most of them usually either go for 3Lo or just choose to get penealized for doing a 3F/3Lz on the wrong edge. For example, Mao Asada would often go for the 3F-3Lo combo in her short program bc she struggled w the 3T, yet she would do the 3Lze and get an edge deduction rather than go for 3S as a solo jump. Another example would be Gracie Gold, who sometimes got lip calls and struggled with the 3Lo, yet she just went for the 3F anyway instead of doing a triple sal. Is it not allowed or do skaters not want to go for it bc it has a low bv?

Some do, especially those who don't have a full range of secure triples. Zahra Lari does 3S, for instance, because it's her only strong triple jump. But for others who can do triple jumps with higher base values, they'll often reason that doing a slightly less secure jump with a higher base value is worth the risk.

One thing I'd like to see more of is salchow combinations, though. For some reason people seem to be fine with 3T3T combinations but side-eye 3S3Ts as too easy, and 3S3Lo is very difficult but if done well really should provide a solid GOE bonus on top of its base value. Kurt Browning used to do a 3S3Lo combination sometimes, and it looked amazing.
 

Jeanie19

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Country
United-States
Some do, especially those who don't have a full range of secure triples. Zahra Lari does 3S, for instance, because it's her only strong triple jump. But for others who can do triple jumps with higher base values, they'll often reason that doing a slightly less secure jump with a higher base value is worth the risk.

One thing I'd like to see more of is salchow combinations, though. For some reason people seem to be fine with 3T3T combinations but side-eye 3S3Ts as too easy, and 3S3Lo is very difficult but if done well really should provide a solid GOE bonus on top of its base value. Kurt Browning used to do a 3S3Lo combination sometimes, and it looked amazing.

Evgenia Medvedeva does a beautiful 3S3Lo.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Some do, especially those who don't have a full range of secure triples.

Yes, very much so. If you watch more of the senior field beyond the elite skaters, the easier triples are much more common.

(As mentioned earlier, juniors have a required solo jump which is never salchow or toe loop. But many mid-level juniors will do those jumps in their combination.)


One thing I'd like to see more of is salchow combinations, though. For some reason people seem to be fine with 3T3T combinations but side-eye 3S3Ts as too easy,

I don't know that they think it's "too easy" compared to 3T+3T, but rather that it's easier to get higher GOE for the 3T+3T, so if they're going to do an easier combination they want to maximize the potential reward.

and 3S3Lo is very difficult but if done well really should provide a solid GOE bonus on top of its base value. Kurt Browning used to do a 3S3Lo combination sometimes, and it looked amazing.

The nature of triple loops at the end of combinations makes it difficult to maximize GOE, since it's hard to earn the "good height and distance" criterion.

In free skates, there are three combinations allowed, and at most two triple toes, so skaters who can will look to put other triples at the end of combinations (loops, or euler+salchow or flip). In short programs, there's only one combination, so skaters will usually strategize what is likely to earn them the best base value+GOE.



Evgenia Medvedeva does a beautiful 3S3Lo.
 
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