2014 Skate America FD 10/25

[dorispulaski]

I still hope video of the Eurosport dance coverage will surface! Although I am quite happy with Tanith, especially compared with Wilson and Bezic, I still like to hear what any combo of Nicky, Chris and Simon have to say.

 

[dorispulaski]

Thanks for explanation.
But in this case it is a mistake of ISU rules and people who created this, because as you copy a part of rule about Level 2-4, it sounds....Different entry edge and different direction of rotation for the two Twizzles...it doesn't speak about which two Twizzles (first and third Set, or second and third Set, or first and second Set) must be done in different direction and different entry edge...it only speaks about Two Twizzles, not noticed IT MUST NECESSARILY BE FIRST TWO SETS. If rules are not explained in detail, then many people can explain it in many ways.

The same thing for example in Dance Holds....when ISU rules are saying that dance hold is counted when it is held long enough and clearly recognized...what does it mean? That you keep it for 2 seconds, or for at least one turn, or for 3 seconds?.....or one Technical Specialist will say 2 seconds are enough and another will take a half second and a beginning of one turn like long enough?

It is always the case that to achieve Level 3 you must satisfy the requirements for Level 2 and so forth. There is no Group C in Level 2.

We saw this when discovering how lifts and spins would drop to level 1. I think the Finlandia panel just didn't notice or else thought that the team did a forward inside followed by a forward outside twizzle.

 

[Alba]

I still hope video of the Eurosport dance coverage will surface! Although I am quite happy with Tanith, especially compared with Wilson and Bezic, I still like to hear what any combo of Nicky, Chris and Simon have to say.

I wanted to record actually but my media center is broken. I'm waiting for the new one so it will be for SC.

Nicky is commenting the dance on Eurosport.

I agree with you about Tanith. She really is so much better than Wilson and Bezic.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I still hope video of the Eurosport dance coverage will surface! Although I am quite happy with Tanith, especially compared with Wilson and Bezic, I still like to hear what any combo of Nicky, Chris and Simon have to say.

THANK YOU DORIS!!!

I was watching 0316seisato's videos of yesterday's Short Programmes on YouTube earlier. And when I heard the female commentator, I thought "I know that voice..." But, I wasn't sure who it was, and it was really annoying me!

In case you are wondering, it's just Nicky on his own for Eurosport today.

As it was only a 45 minute broadcast, British Eurosport's highlights only showed the following couples:

1 Elisabeth PARADIS / Francois-Xavier OUELLETTE CAN
4 Anastasia CANNUSCIO / Colin MCMANUS USA
6 Alexandra STEPANOVA / Ivan BUKIN RUS
7 Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA
8 Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES USA

Hopefully your search on YouTube for the Eurosport videos will prove fruitful!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[sisinka]

It is always the case that to achieve Level 3 you must satisfy the requirements for Level 2 and so forth. There is no Group C in Level 2.

We saw this when discovering how lifts and spins would drop to level 1. I think the Finlandia panel just didn't notice or else thought that the team did a forward inside followed by a forward outside twizzle.

I believe that you are right, but looking at rules - there are no requirements what Group (A, B, C) must Levels have in Level 2 and 3. Level 2 says that you are using two Features or One Difficult Feature - nothing about from which Group. The same for Level 3 - there is a notice about having two different Groups (but no mention about which Group - A and B, A and C, B and C). Only Level 4 has mentioned that you must have all three Groups. So rules are really not specified.

 

[sisinka]

Madison Chock & Evan Bates:

How is this costuming connected with American in Paris?

Twizzles with good ice coverage, from smaller speed. Madison was obviously flirting with Three turns in the first and second Set of Twizzles, but Technical specialist didn’t notice… Skating in juniors, Levels go down if you execute Three turns, but if you are Madison or Penny, Level 4 is kept? It is funny.

Circular Step Sequence: some only light edges, some good edges. Evan executed One Foot Section with four turns – Rocker, Counter, Bracket and Double Twizzle – during Counter he did a little hoop from Right Backward Inside edge into Right Forward Inside edge – this is not correctly executed turn.

There is another problem in ISU rules, which is not specified (and I didn’t find it in Questions – if one turn in One Foot Section is performed incorrectly, does it mean that:
1) All One Foot Section is out? (Propably not.)
2) All other clean turns in One Foot Section are counted? (In this case 3 clean turns – Rocker, Bracket and Double Twizzle in this part woud be sufficient for Level 3.)
3) Only turns performed after each other in One Foot Section are counted? (In this case it would be only last two turns – Bracket and Double Twizzles – which would mean only Level 2.)

Which answer is correct?

In the same circular Step Sequence Evan fell out of last Double Twizzle – eight judges gave GOE +2 and one judge gave +3. It only leads to think (in a little bit funny mood) that if Madison would also fall out of last Double Twizzle, number of GOE +3 will increase.

Diagonal Step Sequence: Madison’s Chocktaw with almost unvisible opening edge, her Double Twizzles shouldn’t be counted because she did a Piruette during the second rotation. Rest of edges OK.
Mistake in Madison’s Twizzles caused that she stayed without Double Twizzle, she only executed one clean rotation in Twizzle, which should Technical specialist awarded with Level 2 only (because for Level 3 and 4 both partners need clean Double Twizzle). As I noticed from Protocols - Technical specialist, Assistent of Technical specialists and Technical Controller visibly closed eyes during Madison’s Double Twizzle giving Level 3, judges once again from GOE +1 to +3.

Although I always take Madison like better technician than Evan is, during this competition he was the stronger skater of these two, he had better edges in Step Sequences.

From ISU rules: Illegal Lift Movement/Pose - point of contact of the lifting hand/arm of the lifting partner with any part of the body of the lifted partner higher than the lifting partner’s head.
…During first lift Evan is keeping Madison’s knee which is above his head (sure Evan has curly hair which helps him to have level of head imaginary higher, but even taking his hair into account her knee with his hand on is higher than his head).

First lift a little bit shaky during first pose, second and third lift very nice like usual.

Madison’s stumble after Step sequence (probably loose of concentration after hard work in steps), it happens, she quickly came back.

My opinion about the dance itself is known from Nebelhorn Trophy. This time it was skated with better dynamics towards the end, so there is an improvement.

To Evan: Madison is visible for whole dance, but this time Evan put a big effort to be visible from time to time also, and really from time to time I “saw him“, that is better then last time. Just continue in it. But other imperfections remains…poor work of free leg – that is mistake which touches the basic technique, head forward – this is not elegant, body bent forward – this is not elegant.

Madison was flirtatious, cute, coquettish…it suits her very well. It is almost the same style she showed in SD. I think that Spanish dance style and American in Paris music are two absolutely different kind of music with two absolutely different dance styles… but judges really think that Spanish and AIP music are the same giving for Performance, Choreography and Interpretation from 8.68 to 8.79 points.

Is it normal to give 8.64 points for Skating Skills for stumble and not clean technique shown at least by Madison (I try to forget about Evan’s posture)?

If Madison & Evan got 102 points for such skate, what will judges give to couples who are technically stronger, better in presentation and who will skate clean? 112 points?

I understand that US needs another team who will take medal at World Championships and it is visible that those chosen ones will be Madison & Evan, and US Federation’s choice is visible even at first Grand Prix (without need to see other US couples). But is it really necessary to pump marks like that for not absolutely clean skate?

Chock & Bates Components are 51.86, Skating Skills 8.64.
While overall rules changed a lot, Component‘s definitions and the height of marks didn’t change that much.
Before Virtue & Moir and Davis & White became a legends with marks others will only dream about….in 2008 and 2009 they were very young, talented people who executed difficult and clean dances (in case of V&M with very good presentation). V&M Components at 2008 and 2009 World Championships were 50.59 and 49.28, D&W Components were 44.84 and 48.83 points. Their Skating Skills in 2008 and 2009 at World Champs were – V&M 8.46 and 8.15 (Virtue was injured in 2009) and D&W 7.61 and 8.10 points.

Do you really think that already at the beginning of the season Chock & Bates are stronger technicians and stronger in presentation than Virtue & Moir and Davis & White were in 2008 and 2009? Come on.

 

[sisinka]

Maia Shibutani & Alex Shibutani:

I miss old Twizzles from Nepela Memorial, it was soooo great. I wonder who came with idea to change so original Twizzles into those one less original and less cool looking. There was probably a Piruette at the end of second Set in Alex’s case – Technical specialists saw it and probably gave Level 3 (it is interesting that he saw Alex’s Piruette and didn’t see Madison’s Three turns).

Nice lifts, the third lift from last year FD, it is funny that opening lift is the same like lift of Hungarian couple at JGP Croatia (their coach is Fusar-Poli).

Circular Step Sequence: Opening Bracket didn’t look to have a first edge for both of them. Maia had One Foot Section with 3 turns – first Rocker – I am not sure about exiting edge (poor camera angle, but if there was an edge, it was only slightly done). Alex’s Chocktaw from Leg Forward Outside edge to Right Backward Inside edge – edges looked to be slightly done. In the same moment Maia’s Chocktaw had probably only slightly edge if any. – This part of steps were shown from big distance, so it is hard to saw whether edges were there or not, but for sure they were not deep at all. No opening edge in Mohawk done together (good camera angle).

Diagonal Step Sequence: Once again no opening edge in Mohawk, the rest of edges looked well done. Definitely better edges than in first Step Sequence.

Maia had always nice body posture, nice arms. Some arm movements are very nice and expressive, some are done more carefully (and in this moment it looses an effect). Overall I would concentrate more on making fingers and wrist‘s work to make whole arms even fingers more visible. Definitely first lift needs more expressive arm movements to sell the position better.

I would like to see some ballroom back work – bent backward with head to the side, without it the choreography and dance looks to be static. More head movements coming with arm movements in one would be fine also.

Overall I have a feeling that Maia is feeling more like Cinderella on the ice – nice, soft, romantic, tender. But the couple uses also Waltz parts which are much more dynamic and almost aggresive in comparison with slower or tender parts. This parts need expression in “I am the queen of the ball“ style.

I think the reason why some people find this dance boring is the fact that while music has slower and faster parts, Maia and Alex are skating with almost identical dynamics and power, they are not accepting the changements of music.

I also don’t understand what is the sense to change tempo of music so many times: it starts with slower music for about 40 seconds – then if goes faster and faster into really fast music for next 30 seconds – then beautiful slower Waltz which gets a little bit faster through time with Circular Step Sequence – then once again soft music with spin – then restful part with lift for 20 seconds – then slower part with slowly getting into a fast which is finished with Twizzle part – then once again slower part for 15 seconds – then big crescendo with Step Sequence and finally the end. When music stops I have a feeling that there were at least 20 music cuts changing so quickly that it comes to mind the choreographer used whole disc with 15 Waltz dances which are played at Ballroom competitions. I don’t know why? It becomes chaotic to me.

And the last question. I know Maia and Alex have some rhythm issues, it was visible already in SD. But this time…who was the choreographer? Marina Zueva? Massimo Scali? Peter Tchernyshev? Shibs‘ biggest enemy? We all know that we must count One-Two-Three in this dance. Shibs FD is mostly NOT DONE into One-Two-Three style, only a very short part after spin is done with some choreo in Waltz rhythm. Just make a test and count or clap with hands to One-Two-Three for the whole free dance (without parts which are changing the rhythm too fastly) and you will see that not only Shibs misses some rhythm, but choreography doesn’t accept it in most of time. Also the accent should be in the first beat – to One, NOT to Two or Three.

Of course we are in figure skating and not every element can be done into One-Two-Three, but it depends only on quality of choreographer to bring Step Sequences which will fit into music rhythm and there is definitely big space to accept the Waltz rhythm in Transitions!

Look at dances which are choreographed like Waltz into Waltz rhythm with accepting right beat:
Domnina & Shabalin – Masquarade – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti5VyiUSrow
Krylova & Fedorov OD - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D89_W1W-iMg

Nikita Katsalapov noticed many times that they have so many specialists around themselves in comparison with last seasons (sooner he had about 6-9 specialists including Brodway dancers, box coaches, Cirque Du Soleil specialist, ballet coaches, plus of course Morozov, his one or two assistents, from time to time Kustarova, coach of physical condition, masseur….so probably with Zueva number of specialists is even higher).

How is it possible that during a half year nobody from those great specialists didn’t notice that Maia and Alex’s FD is out of the rhythm with both choreography and kids interpretation? I know that here are many people who wish Shibs better coaching team at the Forum…and frankly if this is the best what coaching team Canton may offer them….well, it is not too much.

 

[sisinka]

Alexandra Stepanova & Ivan Bukin:

Diagonal Step Sequence: after Double Twizzle which looked good Sasha had slightly edge in Mohawk, in next step – Mohawk – opening edge almost invisible again, in the same moment Ivan’s Rocker looked to have no opening edge, in the next step Ivan Counter had slight or no exiting edge in Counter – and this edge was opening edge for Bracket – so if Technical specialist didn’t count Counter and Bracket – Ivan lost One Foot Section which could lead to Level 2.

Circular Step Sequence: I didn’t see any major problem with edges, for Level 3 three changes of hold are needed – they started with Foxtrot into Killian hold then a half second in Killian hold (maybe it was taken like a transitional hold and not counted), then once again Foxtrot hold with change into Killian – these would be only two changed of holds for Level 2 only.

There is another not well explained place in ISU rules (not only how long must be hold not to be taken like transitional hold), if two same changes like in Sasha & Ivan’s case from Foxtrot to Killian hold executed twice are counted like one change or two changes.

Many Pair Cathegory looking like skating, big spacing between partners, many open holds.

Body bent forward for whole dance.

Lifts are nicely done, but it always takes ages to execute all positions. I appreciate very much that the couple is able to execute such lifts even with Sasha being tall girl with long limbs. What I don’t like about the lifts is the fact that they have nothing to do with music. They are all in style: “Look what we can do…yes, and we can do even such lifts…and finally look at us what creative lift we can do also.“ It all looks like slower acrobatic attitude.

The program is better than when I saw it last time. There is a jump forward visible in Sasha’s case. She made a big effort into creating some atmosphere, she tried to accept faster rhythm, she was doing big moves. For the first time Ivan really tried to have a eye contact with her when I realised that he really knows she is there, it helped the overall look.

They need to make first part of Circular Step Sequence visibly faster and more dynamic, also with arm movements which are too gentle into that furious part of music.

I don’t see the dance, it is still a program with many elements, but with an improvement in overall look.
Good for kids that they concentrated well to show good skate without any major mistakes.

 

[elif]

In what way suspicious?

One skater clearly front of the other (Chock for SD, Bates for FD) and they are just moving different ways. Not exactly crossing each other's patterns. Looks easier than Shibutani's former twizzles or Italians in here and less dangerous. By end of the season, I'm sure many teams will do that twizzles.

If it is in the rules, congratulations to Igor. :agree: He really understand the rules. Last year watching Zoueva with levels of V/M's lifts and this year with Shibutanis four (!?) set of twizzles, I'm now absolutely sure he was behind technical advantage of his former teams.

 

[elif]

What is difficult position for Chock in first lift? It is not layback. I thought maybe that lift is change of pose lift. But they hold that position like it is difficult pose, so I'm not sure..

 

[Alba]

And the last question. I know Maia and Alex have some rhythm issues, it was visible already in SD. But this time…who was the choreographer? Marina Zueva? Massimo Scali? Peter Tchernyshev? Shibs‘ biggest enemy?

I'm afraid their "biggest enemy" is Madame Zueva in person.

 

[Mathman]

One skater clearly front of the other (Chock for SD, Bates for FD) and they are just moving different ways.

To me, that's really hard to tell from video because the camera is constantly moving and changing angle. Sometimes it looks like one is ahead, sometimes the other.

 

[Mathman]

Madison Chock & Evan Bates:

How is this costuming connected with American in Paris?

They should have gone for this (from the MGM movie). :yes:

http://silverscreenmodes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/An-American-in-Paris-2.jpg

 

[mary01]

I really like the shibitani's sp, it was different from what they usually skate to, they just need to focus on getting the levels on their elements, it's such a waste when small careless things can make such a difference in the scores, and I really want to see them win.

 

[WeakAnkles]

There is no rule, written or otherwise, that says if you are skating to a movie or musical soundtrack you have to mimic the original costuming. In fact, kudos to them for NOT doing so.

 

[alithia]

It really is as if nobody in Canton noticed the whole FD is out of rythm.Or they are so used to being given the benefit of the doubt that they didn't bother notice it. But the Shibs aren't DW or VM to be given the benefit of the doubt.

Chock/Bates aren't my cup of tea either,but the program is well set, the elements are visible,I wouldn't give them 102, but I'd still put them in first place
Stepanova/Bukin,sorry, they do nothing for me. Two skaters trying to do more than they can right now, because the coaches and Tarasova saw an open door. I had to laugh at Irina Zhuk telling the russian press that all the specialists are amazed by them and tells her Stepanova is the best female dancer right now, in skating, looks, and body. Stepanova is a pretty girl,I guess her coach wants to fight with Zueva who has the bluest eyes and longer legs between their female students...


I liked the Canadians, unexpctedly, they were lovely, simple, but lovely.It was like fresh air

 

[Alba]

I liked the Canadians, unexpctedly, they were lovely, simple, but lovely.It was like fresh air

Me too. I didn't noticed them before but I love these two.

 

[sisinka]

There is no rule, written or otherwise, that says if you are skating to a movie or musical soundtrack you have to mimic the original costuming. In fact, kudos to them for NOT doing so.

I didn't mean this, I meant how are their costumes connected to music? Madison's dress is a micture of Bond girl dress and dress for a little bit older lady coming to the ball. Evan's dress looks like training dress. How is it connected to music which is playful and really not sober (if I use the right word) and boring?

 

[elif]

I I had to laugh at Irina Zhuk telling the russian press that all the specialists are amazed by them and tells her Stepanova is the best female dancer right now, in skating, looks, and body. Stepanova is a pretty girl,I guess her coach wants to fight with Zueva who has the bluest eyes and longer legs between their female students...

What?

Maia Shibutani & Alex Shibutani:

I think the reason why some people find this dance boring is the fact that while music has slower and faster parts, Maia and Alex are skating with almost identical dynamics and power, they are not accepting the changements of music.

This... And everything (elements or transitions) is just old and copied. I only liked twizzles before and thought they are highlight of the dance but they changed to same old twizzles too..

 

[bramweld]

Sisinka, thanks for the reviews. Agreed with most of your comments. You are right about the Shibs and Canton. It feels like a scenario of too many cooks in the kitchen. The problem with their FD is first the choreography is non-existent. Second why did they change the twizzles, that was the best part of the dance. Third their skating doesn't change with the music all one note. Does Marina think the judges are blind demanding higher scores? Puhleaseeee