If Adelina Sotnikova returns

[Mathman]

Her PC score will be 10 points lower than what she got near the end of 2013-2014 season. Components essentially equal to that of Yuna and higher than Carolina and Mao? I don't see how anyone can even attempt to substantiate that! It was outrageous and really it's an issue of more than just "a lot of people liked the other girl." Sure she won, fine, but with near-record scores? That's outrageous...

Let me revise my response to gmyers post.

The IOC and the ISU do not care about how much higher or lower Adelina's component scores were in other competitions compared to those she received at Sochi, or compared to the scores that other skaters were awarded. They also do not care if I (and other skating fans who think that Yuna Kim is the greatest skater of all time, unless it's Michelle Kwan) are outraged at the scoring.

 

[jenaj]

It was reported in the Russian press, and it has always been referred to as a matter of common knowledge at the Russian forums. I've never seen any of Lipnitskaya's or Sotnikova's fans deny it.

Can you provide a citation or link?

 

[gmyers]

But seriously… The powers that be would have to have an actual reason for considering such action, not just, "a lot of people liked the other girl."

I don't think so. I checked the rulebook last year and it was quite clear that, because of the fact that nobody protested against the result that night, there's no chance to change it. It would be different if somebody could prove that there was a conspiracy (like it was in 2002), or if somebody was doped.

The IOC and isu actually allowed the bending of all the rules to give s/p gold. They were not in the position to get gold if a judges score for b/s was revoked! They were just given gold politically and with no rulebook reasons. Wasn't sp tiebreaker anyway? No confessions but all circumstantial and questionable behavior. I think sotnikova skated best she ever did and deserved gold but there is certainly enough beleif that Yuna was best that rules could be bent again to give her gold. Isu could make it happen and IOC would go along probably. I think some believe that its best to move on and treat it like t/d winning bronze in lillehamer.

 

[koatcue]

Could you, please, be polite? .

I'm not impolite. Just am not particularly fond of false information.

She is the director of the TSKA skating club, as well as one of the coaches there.

And a g a i n. Where did you get that from?!) I looked through the CSKA site myself just to be sure. I'm native, btw, so I don't let google translate (or whatever you used) mislead me.

PS- the director of CSKA is Baryshev, if that tells you anything

 

[solani]

The IOC and isu actually allowed the bending of all the rules to give s/p gold. They were not in the position to get gold if a judges score for b/s was revoked! They were just given gold politically and with no rulebook reasons. Wasn't sp tiebreaker anyway? No confessions but all circumstantial and questionable behavior. I think sotnikova skated best she ever did and deserved gold but there is certainly enough beleif that Yuna was best that rules could be bent again to give her gold. Isu could make it happen and IOC would go along probably. I think some believe that its best to move on and treat it like t/d winning bronze in lillehamer.

In 2002 there was this issue with the french judge. I think she said that somebody (that weird French guy, I always forget his name, or I want to forget it, don't know) put pressure on her. It was obvious that something wasn't right. It was the right decision to give S/P that gold, but after that the ISU made a couple of bad decisions, f.e. anonymous judging.
So in Sochi we have the result, we suspect that something isn't right but there's simply no substantial evidence.
I asked myself a couple of times why the South Korean Fed didn't file a protest that night in Sochi. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Ophelia]

SK Fed is too weak. Can we get back on topic?

 

[Camillo]

She is the director of the TSKA skating club, as well as one of the coaches there.

PS- the directer of CSKA is Baryshev, if that tells you anything

Baryshev is the Head (Nachalnik) of CSKA (Central Sport Club of the Army). All of it, not only skating team.

Buyanova is
the Head of the [CSKA FS] Team and the Main coach
http://ltk-cska.ru/trenery/

the Main head-coach of the CSKA FS team (since 2003)
http://cska.ru/leaders2.html

Undoubtedly, Buyanova is the key person in CSKA in the field of figure skating.

 

[sabinfire]

SK Fed is too weak. Can we get back on topic?

Speaking of the topic, I wonder when the "If Adelina Sotnikova returns" should become "When Adelina Sotnikova returns"?

 

[gmyers]

In 2002 there was this issue with the french judge. I think she said that somebody (that weird French guy, I always forget his name, or I want to forget it, don't know) put pressure on her. It was obvious that something wasn't right. It was the right decision to give S/P that gold, but after that the ISU made a couple of bad decisions, f.e. anonymous judging.
So in Sochi we have the result, we suspect that something isn't right but there's simply no substantial evidence.
I asked myself a couple of times why the South Korean Fed didn't file a protest that night in Sochi. Any thoughts on that?

I meant to say no confessions last year as compared to 2002. In 2002 there was a brief moment of a confession before it was retracted but not even a brief moment of confession just circumstantial hugs and names.

There had to be pressure on South Korean officials that were there! Hug went viral immediately. Hugs are not evidence of wrongdoing though. The hug will be on banners at Japan open euros worlds etc if she goes Japan open euros worlds. Especially worlds in Boston. Watch for hug banners

 

[Barb]

I meant to say no confessions last year as compared to 2002. In 2002 there was a brief moment of a confession before it was retracted but not even a brief moment of confession just circumstantial hugs and names.

There had to be pressure on South Korean officials that were there! Hug went viral immediately. Hugs are not evidence of wrongdoing though. The hug will be on banners at Japan open euros worlds etc if she goes Japan open euros worlds. Especially worlds in Boston. Watch for hug banners

if someone put a banner with the hug will look stupid and I hope that person will be throw out of the arena.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Sochi will always be a part of an Adelina topic. Whether people like it or not; it's a part of her.

 

[Spiral]

Can you provide a citation or link?

It was some time ago, but I’ve tried to find the relevant articles and in the process reread it all anew, refreshing it all in my mind.

At first Elena Vaitsekhovskaya from Sport-Express published two articles on Feb. 21, 2014.

The first one was titled “Adelina is First.”

The two paragraphs before the first asterisks read (in Russian):

Вряд ли кто в одиночном разряде больше чем Аделина заслуживал золотого олимпийского подарка в виде медали командного турнира. Для всех его участников – особенно тех, кто выходил на замену – эти медали стали именно таким, достаточно внезапным и оттого вдвойне приятным бонусом. Но за три недели до Игр случился чемпионат Европы и совершенно блистательное выступление 15-летней чудо-девочки – Липницкой. После которого министр российского спорта Виталий Мутко и сказал Юле и ее тренеру Этери Тутберидзе применительно к будущим олимпийским командным выступлениям: «Выбор за вами!»
Вот тогда Этери и попросила, чтобы ее ученица катала в командном турнире обе программы. И Аделина осталась за бортом золотого экипажа.

In English:

Hardly anyone in singles deserved the golden Olympic gift in the form of a team medal more than Adelina. For all the participants of the team event, especially substitutes, these medals became exactly this kind of unexpected, and thus twice as much pleasant bonus. But three weeks before the Games the European Championship took place with a totally brilliant performance by a fifteen-year-old miracle girl Lipnitskaya, after which the minister of Russian sports Vitaly Mutko said to Yulya and her coach Eteri Tutberidze regarding the future Olympic team event: “The choice is yours!”

That’s when Eteri asked that her student skate both programs in the team event. And Adelina was left behind the doors of the golden carriage.

Here is a link to the entire article (in Russian) on Vaitsekhovskaya’s site:

http://www.velena.ru/o_games/sotchi/OG2014_2102.html

Vaitsekhovskaya’s second article produced later that day was titled “The Princess of Sochi.”

The two paragraphs after the second asterisks read (in Russian):

Узнав о том, что места в командном турнире ей не нашлось, Сотникова прорыдала несколько часов. Сама ситуация вокруг этого вида программы изначально сложилась достаточно взрывоопасная - как это бывает всегда, когда приходится делить еще не завоеванные, но заведомо гарантированные медали.
Наутро после женского финала мне пришлось выслушать целый ряд претензий, высказанных в достаточно грубой форме наставником Липницкой Этери Тутберидзе. Тренер отрицала, что заявить Юлю в двух видах командного первенства было ее желанием. На замечание, что я всего лишь процитировала слова, которые в ходе интервью с олимпийской бригадой «СЭ» сказал накануне личного финала министр спорта, отрезала: «Я вам не верю! Кто я такая, чтобы о чем-то просить министра? Все, что вы написали по этому поводу, - ложь!».

In English:

When she’d found out that she’d be left out of the team event, Sotnikova cried for several hours. The situation around this event was quite explosive, as it always happens when it comes to dividing yet unearned, but guaranteed medals.

In the morning after the ladies’ final skate I had to listen to a number of complaints expressed by Lipnitskaya’s coach Eteri Tutberidze in quite a rude form. The coach denied that it was her wish to have Yulya skate two programs in the team event. When I replied that I had merely quoted what the minister of sports said on the eve of the individual final during an interview with the Olympic team of Sport-Express, she declared: “I don’t believe you! Who am I to ask the minister about something? Everything that you’ve written about it is a lie!”

Here is a link to the entire article (in Russian) on Vaitsekhovskaya’s site:

http://www.velena.ru/o_games/sotchi/OG2014_AS.html

Then the Russian FS Fed’s press-secretary Olga Ermolina took an interview with Tutberidze which was published on the fed’s site on Feb. 25, 2014.

The fifth question reads (in Russian):

– Вы настаивали на том, чтобы ваша ученица выступала на Олимпиаде и в командных, и в личных соревнованиях? Говорят, даже просили министра спорта об этом.
– Это неправда. После чемпионата Европы мне сказали, что в командных соревнованиях Юля будет катать произвольную программу, а Аделина короткую, так как на протяжении сезона она выигрывала короткую, а Юля – произвольную. Я посчитала такое решение справедливым. Даже начала планировать процесс подготовки таким образом, чтобы в большей степени сконцентрироваться на произвольной программе. Но потом пошли разговоры, что в соревнованиях примет участие только Аделина, что Юля не выступит, так как непростая ситуация складывается в танцах, поэтому в командных соревнованиях выступят два наших танцевальных дуэта, чтобы снизить нагрузку на Лену Ильиных и Никиту Кацалапова, которые нацеливались бороться за бронзу. И вот это был единственный раз, когда я позвонила в федерацию и попросила не отстегивать Юлю от командного турнира, потому что она завоевала это право. На всех стартах этого сезона, кроме чемпионата России, Юля занимала более высокие места, показывала стабильное катание. Я говорила только об участии Юли в командных соревнованиях. А как там будет, сколько про-грамм ей предстоит катать – одну, две, это даже не обсуждалось. Да я и не того уровня человек, чтобы принимать такие решения. Тогда-то мне был задан вопрос: «А если Юле придется катать четыре программы, она выдержит?» И я ответила, что если у нас нет выбора, что если речь идет о том: быть или не быть, участвовать или не участвовать, то, конечно, участвовать.

In English:

- Did you insist that your student skate at the Olympics in both the team and the individual event? They say, you even asked the minister of sports about it.
- That’s not true. After the European Championship I was told that in the team event Yulya will skate the long program and Adelina the short because throughout the season she won the short, and Yulya – the long. I thought such a decision was fair. I even began to plan the training process so as to focus more on the long program. But then there were talks that only Adelina would participate in the [team] competition, and Yulya wouldn’t, because there was a complicated situation in ice dance, and so two of our dance teams were to skate in the team event, in order to lighten the burden on Lena Ilinykh and Nikita Katsalapov who aimed to fight for the bronze [in the individual event]. And that was the only time when I called the federation and asked not to exclude Yulya from the team event, because she had earned that right. At all the competitions of that season, except the Russian Nationals, Yulya had placed higher and had been consistent. I spoke only of Yulya’s participation in the team event. How many programs she would skate there, one or two, wasn’t even discussed. I’m not a person of such a caliber as to make such decisions. And that’s when I was asked the question: “And if Yulya has to skate four programs, will she hold up?” And I replied that if we don’t have a choice, that if it’s a question of participating [in the team event] or not, then, of course, we want to take part in it.

Link to the entire article (in Russian):
http://fsrussia.ru/news/1118_eteri-...orye-vyhodyat-na-vysokij-uroven-maksimalisty/

So it appears that originally the plan was to split participation in the team event in pairs and ladies, but later the fed decided to send two ice dance duets instead and have one lady in the team event – and that one lady was going to be Sotnikova, despite Lipnitskaya having had a much better season thus far. It took personal intervention on the part of Tutberidze to ensure that Lipnitskaya got to skate in the team event. This much both Tutberidze and the pro-TSKA Vaitsekhovskaya agree upon.

Whether Tutberidze called the ministry as Vaitsekhovskaya claimed or the federation as Tutberidze said is unclear. On the one hand, I’m much more inclined to believe Tutberidze than Vaitsekhovskaya. On the other, would Vaitsekhovskaya dare make up what the minister said before the press and put it in writing? Could Tutberidze misspeak and mean the ministry rather than the federation? Perhaps, she spoke not with the minister personally, but the issue was later referred to him, and he made the decision? Then she could truthfully say that she didn’t speak with Mutko, or maybe she just meant that she didn’t ask for her student to skate in both programs.

In that last I fully believe her. I also can’t imagine a coach making demands of the fed or the ministry that her student be the only skater in her discipline to participate in the team event. The only choice the ministry or the fed could put before Tutberidze would be whether her student would skate both programs in both events or not be in the team event at all. Whether Vaitsekhovskaya misunderstood the minister or intentionally skewed what he had said because of her political leanings can be known only to the other Sport-Express journalists who were at that meeting with the minister. (Incidentally I remember looking for a quote from the minister regarding this matter back then, and didn’t find it. Still, I doubt Vaitsekhovskaya would dare fully invent him talking about something he mention at all. The question is IMO what exactly he said.) I guess it’s even possible that Tutberidze spoke to some sympathetic or neutral person in the federation who couldn’t prevail, and the matter was settled by the ministry, either because the two camps in the fed couldn’t reach a consensus or because the pro-Lipnitskaya fed person contacted the minister and persuaded him to intervene.

Again, the one thing is clear. Faced with having to make a choice, the fed first went with Sotnikova, the gap between her and Lipnitskaya’s performances at GPF and Euros notwithstanding.

 

[YesWay]

Sochi will always be a part of an Adelina topic.

Only because certain people insist on hijacking every Adelina topic, and try to make it part of the topic.

Or indeed - start threads like this one, with the full knowledge and intention that it will turn to Sochi...

 

[Mathman]

I meant to say no confessions last year as compared to 2002. In 2002 there was a brief moment of a confession before it was retracted but not even a brief moment of confession just circumstantial hugs and names.

You have answered your own question. That is why there was a (successful) protest in 2002 and why there is not and will not be any further investigation or action on the Sochi results.

 

[OS]

Only because certain people insist on hijacking every Adelina topic, and try to make it part of the topic.

Or indeed - start threads like this one, with the full knowledge and intention that it will turn to Sochi...

As oppose to hijack the thread censoring topics on Sochi due to the inconvenient truth? Not realising without Sochi, Adelina is practically none factor to the sport. She is a 9th World Championship finisher, silver at Youth Olympic games due to PCS, silver at European Championships due to PCS inflation amidst controversies, 5th GPF finisher, what else has she done exactly that is worth discussing? Her fabulous programs? Exceptional musicality? Fantastic artistry? Amazing flutz? Golden Spin gold medal where her toughest competitor were Haruna Suzuki? I am genuinely curious.

Imagine going to a sport forum where Olympics champion/championship shouldn't be discussed because somebody don't like it.

 

[Amei]

As oppose to hijack the thread censoring topics on Sochi due to the inconvenient truth? Not realising without Sochi, Adelina is practically none factor to the sport. She is a 9th World Championship finisher, silver at Youth Olympic games due to PCS, silver at European Championships due to PCS inflation amidst controversies, 5th GPF finisher, what else has she done exactly that is worth discussing? Her fabulous programs? Exceptional musicality? Fantastic artistry? Amazing flutz? Golden Spin gold medal where her toughest competitor were Haruna Suzuki? I am genuinely curious.

Imagine going to a sport forum where Olympics champion/championship shouldn't be discussed because somebody don't like it.

The problem is that pretty much EVERY SINGLE thread or post that mentions Adelina is hijacked and disintegrates into another "She didn't earn the OGM", etc. thread. It's obnoxious, everyone get's it, there are good portion of people on this board that think she shouldn't have won the OGM. However, this is a broken record that keeps getting brought up and its ruining threads.

Moderators - can we get a thread dedicated for Sochi conspiracy theories? So that members that want to beat that topic to death can have place to do it and not ruin the rest of the threads?

 

[OS]

The problem is that pretty much EVERY SINGLE thread or post that mentions Adelina is hijacked and disintegrates into another "She didn't earn the OGM", etc. thread. It's obnoxious, everyone get's it, there are good portion of people on this board that think she shouldn't have won the OGM. However, this is a broken record that keeps getting brought up and its ruining threads.

Moderators - can we get a thread dedicated for Sochi conspiracy theories? So that members that want to beat that topic to death can have place to do it and not ruin the rest of the threads?

What other thread?

So in Sochi we have the result, we suspect that something isn't right but there's simply no substantial evidence.
I asked myself a couple of times why the South Korean Fed didn't file a protest that night in Sochi. Any thoughts on that?

Such efforts will be futile anyway. Yuna announced her retirement immediately after her skates. PyeongChang 2018 is coming up, she is likely to be the public face/ambassador for the Olympics games there. The consequence is bigger than her, bigger than the games. No point sabotage Korean skaters future for her own benefit. Just my opinion.

 

[jenaj]

It was some time ago, but I’ve tried to find the relevant articles and in the process reread it all anew, refreshing it all in my mind.

At first Elena Vaitsekhovskaya from Sport-Express published two articles on Feb. 21, 2014.

The first one was titled “Adelina is First.”

The two paragraphs before the first asterisks read (in Russian):



In English:



Here is a link to the entire article (in Russian) on Vaitsekhovskaya’s site:

http://www.velena.ru/o_games/sotchi/OG2014_2102.html

Vaitsekhovskaya’s second article produced later that day was titled “The Princess of Sochi.”

The two paragraphs after the second asterisks read (in Russian):



In English:



Here is a link to the entire article (in Russian) on Vaitsekhovskaya’s site:

http://www.velena.ru/o_games/sotchi/OG2014_AS.html

Then the Russian FS Fed’s press-secretary Olga Ermolina took an interview with Tutberidze which was published on the fed’s site on Feb. 25, 2014.

The fifth question reads (in Russian):



In English:


Link to the entire article (in Russian):
http://fsrussia.ru/news/1118_eteri-...orye-vyhodyat-na-vysokij-uroven-maksimalisty/

So it appears that originally the plan was to split participation in the team event in pairs and ladies, but later the fed decided to send two ice dance duets instead and have one lady in the team event – and that one lady was going to be Sotnikova, despite Lipnitskaya having had a much better season thus far. It took personal intervention on the part of Tutberidze to ensure that Lipnitskaya got to skate in the team event. This much both Tutberidze and the pro-TSKA Vaitsekhovskaya agree upon.

Whether Tutberidze called the ministry as Vaitsekhovskaya claimed or the federation as Tutberidze said is unclear. On the one hand, I’m much more inclined to believe Tutberidze than Vaitsekhovskaya. On the other, would Vaitsekhovskaya dare make up what the minister said before the press and put it in writing? Could Tutberidze misspeak and mean the ministry rather than the federation? Perhaps, she spoke not with the minister personally, but the issue was later referred to him, and he made the decision? Then she could truthfully say that she didn’t speak with Mutko, or maybe she just meant that she didn’t ask for her student to skate in both programs.

In that last I fully believe her. I also can’t imagine a coach making demands of the fed or the ministry that her student be the only skater in her discipline to participate in the team event. The only choice the ministry or the fed could put before Tutberidze would be whether her student would skate both programs in both events or not be in the team event at all. Whether Vaitsekhovskaya misunderstood the minister or intentionally skewed what he had said because of her political leanings can be known only to the other Sport-Express journalists who were at that meeting with the minister. (Incidentally I remember looking for a quote from the minister regarding this matter back then, and didn’t find it. Still, I doubt Vaitsekhovskaya would dare fully invent him talking about something he mention at all. The question is IMO what exactly he said.) I guess it’s even possible that Tutberidze spoke to some sympathetic or neutral person in the federation who couldn’t prevail, and the matter was settled by the ministry, either because the two camps in the fed couldn’t reach a consensus or because the pro-Lipnitskaya fed person contacted the minister and persuaded him to intervene.

Again, the one thing is clear. Faced with having to make a choice, the fed first went with Sotnikova, the gap between her and Lipnitskaya’s performances at GPF and Euros notwithstanding.

In the end, it appears to have been a mistake. Yulia couldn't handle the pressure after she became the Sochi skating sweetheart after the team event. But on the other hand, it's probably better that she didn't win gold in the singles event, if that was the plan.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In the end, it appears to have been a mistake. Yulia couldn't handle the pressure after she became the Sochi skating sweetheart after the team event. But on the other hand, it's probably better that she didn't win gold in the singles event, if that was the plan.

I'm not so sure it was a mistake. She got an Olympic Gold medal, Mercedes SUV, and a check for $100,000. Not to mention her subsequent long term endorsement from Adidas and Edea. Adidas funded her trip to the US and paid for her programs for next season. Three in total. Others have bounced back after a growth spurt and/or mental struggles. Maybe she can come back and maybe even stronger than before. Maybe not. If not...well...her competive results will always speak for itself and she achieved the goal she set for herself at 10yrs old to make it to the Olympics. TBH I think it's possible she has less tolerance for the politics of FS and the media that perpetuate it more than about anyone

Maybe it's just me but I think figure skating would be well served to see Julia and Adelina battling it out once again.

 

[Vanshilar]

The problem is that pretty much EVERY SINGLE thread or post that mentions Adelina is hijacked and disintegrates into another "She didn't earn the OGM", etc. thread. It's obnoxious, everyone get's it, there are good portion of people on this board that think she shouldn't have won the OGM. However, this is a broken record that keeps getting brought up and its ruining threads.

Moderators - can we get a thread dedicated for Sochi conspiracy theories? So that members that want to beat that topic to death can have place to do it and not ruin the rest of the threads?

It's more like pretty much EVERY SINGLE thread or post that mentions Adelina is hijacked by people saying "look at those Adelina-haters!". This was true even during the Olympics and post-Olympics discussion. We couldn't even get a good discussion going about the technical aspects of programs because they got spammed by this very phenomenon. Anyone can read through the archived threads, and even this particular thread to see that posters will criticize and/or mock people who criticize Adelina even before posters criticize Adelina essentially trolling and egging others to respond; this is no different than if I were to say "what ruins figure skating for me are those idiots that think it's about artistry and not athleticism" and then when people respond, say "See what I mean?". I think moderators who look at a thread in detail would see that this is most often the case whenever people bring out the "Adelina-hater" card.

I look forward to Adelina returning because I enjoy good skating and she's a good skater. The 2014 Olympics introduced me to a lot of new good skaters that I previously didn't know, because I wasn't keeping up with figure skating, such as Yuzuru, PChan, Javier, Polina, Gracie, Ashley, Yulia, and yes, Adelina. Subsequently I found out about a lot more good skaters, most of them Russian, such as Liza and Elena. If/when Adelina comes back then I hope it means we will see even better programs, because her time on DWTS will improve her presentation and that will hopefully spur other skaters to improve as well. When she had the ankle injury, I thought DWTS was one of the best things she could do: since her skating season was shot, she could continue to maintain her athleticism, learn something different, and -- most importantly -- use that something different to inspire her skating and improve upon it. I would not be surprised if her presentation scores improve.