State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

[skylark]

They haven't dumped her either. If she skated well at Nationals, she could have been national champion. That SP score said a lot. People need to come to terms with the fact that a lot of the stagnation in Mirai's career was mostly her own doing with the exception being the 2014 Olympic selection, but that's been debated to death.

And even after that controversy, Mirai has never yet won a GP medal. She's had many, many more opportunities to prove herself internationally than Mariah or Karen has.

But she does tend to do her best at 4CC, except for the one shining example of 4th place in Vancouver in 2010. I hope USFSA sticks to their guns. They named Karen and Mariah to the world team. That's our system. What other countries' federations do is their choice, and it's another story.

 

[jenaj]

The World team has been decided. It is what it is. Mirai was in a position to get the third spot but she didn't. That said, Mirai has been very unlucky in her career.
She was too young to go to Worlds in 2008. She lost her coach when he moved and she sort of wandered in the wilderness for a few years, before she was old enough to live on her own. In 2011, she was a bronze medalist at 4CC but not on the World team. Rachael Flatt didn't withdraw from the World team despite a serious injury, and Mirai once again lost a chance to go to Worlds. And of course she was left off both the World and Olympic teams in 2014, despite a bronze medal finish at Nationals. It's really kind of amazing after all of those setbacks that she is still in the conversation. Now it is up to Ashley and Mariah and maybe Karen to get those three spots. It could still happen and I'm sure Mirai is rooting for them.

 

[jenaj]

And even after that controversy, Mirai has never yet won a GP medal. She's had many, many more opportunities to prove herself internationally than Mariah or Karen has.

But she does tend to do her best at 4CC, except for the one shining example of 4th place in Vancouver in 2010. I hope USFSA sticks to their guns. They named Karen and Mariah to the world team. That's our system. What other countries' federations do is their choice, and it's another story.

Mirai has won Grand Prix medals.

 

[bekalc]

It's so hopeless to discuss again who deserves to be sent to Worlds, but I fully support Karen. Not having much international experience is a lame argument; if you don't send her to Worlds in the year she actually earned it, she will never have international experiences. She is 17 and she needs more exposure. I have a feeling she might retire when it's time for her to go to college, especially after the Olympics, when she does make the team.
Isn't she a pretty talented painter? I remember she posted a number of paintings she did on her wordpress website.

And even after that controversy, Mirai has never yet won a GP medal. She's had many, many more opportunities to prove herself internationally than Mariah or Karen has.

But she does tend to do her best at 4CC, except for the one shining example of 4th place in Vancouver in 2010. I think USFSA should stick to their guns. They named Karen and Mariah to the world team. That's our system. What other countries' federations do is their choice, and it's another story.

I think the team is the team. BUT I think in this circumstance it would be smart to have not named the team ahead.

I agree you have to let young skaters get experience and even mess up!

But especially in Karen's case, she has gotten international assignments and not done well. So her skating poorly here is no surprise.

I think it would have been more than wise for USFSA to say that's great Karen here is your trip to Four Continents and if you perform well/decently there you are on the team.

I would have waited for Four Continents/Bavarian Open before I named men's too.

I am more willing to give Bell some slack she has performed well internationally this year. She has shown she can bounce back from mistakes....

 

[mrrice]

The World team has been decided. It is what it is. Mirai was in a position to get the third spot but she didn't. That said, Mirai has been very unlucky in her career.
She was too young to go to Worlds in 2008. She lost her coach when he moved and she sort of wandered in the wilderness for a few years, before she was old enough to live on her own. In 2011, she was a bronze medalist at 4CC but not on the World team. Rachael Flatt didn't withdraw from the World team despite a serious injury, and Mirai once again lost a chance to go to Worlds. And of course she was left off both the World and Olympic teams in 2014, despite a bronze medal finish at Nationals. It's really kind of amazing after all of those setbacks that she is still in the conversation. Now it is up to Ashley and Mariah and maybe Karen to get those three spots. It could still happen and I'm sure Mirai is rooting for them.

I hope you're right about this. If Mirai is smart, which I believe she is. She has to know that if Karen skates badly the chances of Mirai making the Olympic Team drop drastically. Without our 3rd spot, Mirai will have a much harder road to making the team. Especially with Miss Consistent, Polina Edmunds returning. I have a feeling that Gracie will be back with a vengeance, especially after seeing Karen win the title. Gracie has beaten every top lady in the US and she has to be feeling frustrated right now.

 

[beki]

I don't think Karen is on the right track with doing her own choreography. It is serviceable but not exceptional. Tammy Gambill also seems like an almost but not quite choice of a coach. I like seeing Mariah taking a less complacent approach to her training situation, and I also think she has a better chance of conquering her nerves in competition.

 

[skylark]

What would Russia do? I think they would send Mirai to Worlds.

In Russian women's skating right now, you live or die by your jumps. Just ask Elizaveta Tukt.

I've read the previous pages of discussion in this thread about why the Russian system is producing the results it has, and I've found the points made very interesting. But that system hasn't created a similar result in men's singles. Just sayin'.

And as for the ladies AND the men, I'm happy with what the US system produces: a field in which performance values are given a chance to rise, mature and develop. I like seeing some stay through their ups and downs, and I like the surprises that come unexpectedly, like Karen and Mariah. And Nathan. POW!

Now I will brace myself against protests, but it's my perspective as a lover of the sport. Winning gold medals at the biggest competitions of the year is great, but it isn't everything. I found this whole 4CC competition wonderful to watch, and many various styles and qualities to admire. Can't wait for the Big Bang of the men's programs tonight.

 

[skylark]

Mirai has won Grand Prix medals.

What I said was:

Quote Originally Posted by skylark View Post
And even after that controversy, Mirai has never yet won a GP medal.

I checked Wiki before I wrote the post. Mirai won two silver and two bronze Grand Prix medals. They were all BEFORE January 2014, when the controversy occurred.

 

[bekalc]

In Russian women's skating right now, you live or die by your jumps. Just ask Elizaveta Tukt.

I've read the previous pages of discussion in this thread about why the Russian system is producing the results it has, and I've found the points made very interesting. But that system hasn't created a similar result in men's singles. Just sayin'.

And as for the ladies AND the men, I'm happy with what the US system produces: a field in which performance values are given a chance to rise, mature and develop. I like seeing some stay through their ups and downs, and I like the surprises that come unexpectedly, like Karen and Mariah. And Nathan. POW!

Now I will brace myself against protests, but it's my perspective as a lover of the sport. Winning gold medals at the biggest competitions of the year is great, but it isn't everything. I found this whole 4CC competition wonderful to watch, and many various styles and qualities to admire. Can't wait for the Big Bang of the men's programs tonight.

The USA invented the system of the teen jumping bean. I recall Kwans debut do you? Or Tara. The USFSA would probably love to take some of Russia's young talent of Russia's hands and I do think would get them better packaging. And if they had this talent it would probably be by bye all the US ladies but they don't.
The reason Russia is so successful with ladies is my understanding is skating is very popular and lots of people want their girls to be skaters. I doubt as many for their boys hence the discrepancy.

It's not like Russian has never had men's champions. They were huge on the original battle of the quads.

Russia has some talented young men coming up from Juniors.

And they have had a man on the World podium before USA has more recently. I don't think USFSA has done a good job producing men's or women's champions at all recently. In any other nation not the USA Nathan Chen would have been national champion over Rippon or Aaron. This sent a horrible message IMO.

And hasn't Chen had Russian coaches all his life?

Right now I see USFSA had lucked into one guy who they could not even reward properly last year.

I do think USFSA has to make some changes and it seems like they are realizing they do need to be more like Russian and encourage youngsters to learn harder stuff sooner.

Don't get me wrong the US has produced great guys in the past but have not recently and I have a hard time congratulating them considering their treatment of Chen last year.

 

[Mathman]

The issue is not who is or isn't getting shafted but what team the USFSA needs to put to Worlds to maintain 3 spots.

I disagree completely. It is about doing the right thing. That is more important to the future of figure skating than getting three spots is. (Just my opinion, of course).

 

[Mathman]

And of course, in the skate of her career, Johnny is still trying to bring her down.

I think the skate of Miri's career was her fourth place performance at the 2010 Olympic Games. :yes:

 

[jenaj]

And even after that controversy, Mirai has never yet won a GP medal. She's had many, many more opportunities to prove herself internationally than Mariah or Karen has.

But she does tend to do her best at 4CC, except for the one shining example of 4th place in Vancouver in 2010. I hope USFSA sticks to their guns. They named Karen and Mariah to the world team. That's our system. What other countries' federations do is their choice, and it's another story.

What I said was:



I checked Wiki before I wrote the post. Mirai won two silver and two bronze Grand Prix medals. They were all BEFORE January 2014, when the controversy occurred.

Well, you didn't make that clear in your post. Mirai had to regroup after 2014, so it's not surprising she hasn't won a GP medal since then.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I don't think Karen is on the right track with doing her own choreography. It is serviceable but not exceptional. Tammy Gambill also seems like an almost but not quite choice of a coach. I like seeing Mariah taking a less complacent approach to her training situation, and I also think she has a better chance of conquering her nerves in competition.

I'm mixed about it. IMO, Karen Chen's SP is the best choreographed Ladies SP this season other than Carolina Kostner's. Her exhibition also shows off her talent for choreography. Her LP is only serviceable, however.

 

[stella luna]

There's always the possibility that 4CC allowed her to shake off some nerves and she will surprise everyone.

It's so hopeless to discuss again who deserves to be sent to Worlds, but I fully support Karen. Not having much international experience is a lame argument; if you don't send her to Worlds in the year she actually earned it, she will never have international experiences. She is 17 and she needs more exposure. I have a feeling she might retire when it's time for her to go to college, especially after the Olympics, when she does make the team.
Isn't she a pretty talented painter? I remember she posted a number of paintings she did on her wordpress website.

 

[skylark]

Mirai had to regroup after 2014, so it's not surprising she hasn't won a GP medal since then.

Other skaters have had to regroup and done it in less than 3 years. I'm not saying it's easy. I still think part of the GP trouble is that she peaks about now. But that isn't an insurmountable obstacle.

I'm actually glad Mirai has stuck with skating and still loves it and wants to reach for her goals. Compared to other skaters, who are as persistent and talented as she is, the outcry for her is a bit lop-sided IMO. Especially because people (not necessarily you) seem to think she's being "shafted," to use one word I've seen on this thread, when in reality she's had plenty of chances to prove herself. But people do love to cheer for the underdog. And to each his own; we all have our taste and our favorites.

To take an example from another discipline, Maxim T. and Tatiana V. both had long struggles and ups and downs with other partners before striking magic with each other. It's inspiring to see someone persist in the face of obstacles.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Mirai's problem IMO, is that she wasn't shafted. Unfortunately, she put herself in this position. Fortunately, she has done a nice job of redeeming herself with her performances at 4CC. The person I'm worried about is Karen. Her performances here have guaranteed that she will not be "Held Up" as the US Champion. Losing to two skaters who finished below you just a few weeks ago tells judges that your win was a possible "Fluke." I have to wonder if Karen is 100% healthy as she looked like a different skater here. Maybe it's the pressure but, there will be a whole lot more when the Russians show up at Worlds.

This is exactly how I feel. Mirai wasn't in the top 3 at Nationals and didn't have an especially strong international season leading up to Nationals. The team was named right after Nationals, so the decision for the women was relatively straightforward. I think Karen saw a PCS bump in the SP from being the US champ, but it seems her form has reverted back to what she typically executes internationally and was once again marked how she was before. I'm hoping that her performance was a result of coming in with a bit more pressure as the US champ, so maybe she can get that first bad event out of her system.

 

[andromache]

I don't think Karen is on the right track with doing her own choreography. It is serviceable but not exceptional. Tammy Gambill also seems like an almost but not quite choice of a coach. I like seeing Mariah taking a less complacent approach to her training situation, and I also think she has a better chance of conquering her nerves in competition.

Agree about the choreo not being exceptionable (then again, the ladies in general this season have lackluster choreo...saving the good stuff for next year?) IMO, a national champion/actual world medal contender should be working with a top-tier choreographer. It lost Polina Edmunds the national title last season. Karen's programs are better than GWTW, but working with a top-tier choreographer is about more than the choreography - it seems like the best skaters in the world have learned a heck of a lot from their choreographers about carriage, movement, interpretation - those experts help a skater develop.

 

[b-man]

I have a slightly different take on Karen's problems. I watched every practice session/warmup in Kansas City from Wed through Saturday. I like Karen's programs, I like her carriage and her speed. She just does not have a reliable 3-3, keeps trying it in competition regardless, and fails as often as she hits. She was falling, 2 footing etc as often in practice as she was hitting the combo. Her success with the combo in the SP and FS at nationals was the best she looked all week.

 

[FlattFan]

Mariah needs to be pulled out of the team and stay home. Mirai to replace Mariah.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I was watching Jason and Grant at 4CC and it made me realize that if the American ladies had as much development in their run of blade, power, and basic skating, they'd be in a much better position to consistently challenge the other ladies and we wouldn't freak out so much if they had off performances. IMO, the reason why Osmond and the other Canadian women can make mistakes and still get monster scores is because they have much better basic skating than the American women do. It's sort of why Gracie Gold was able to rank high with her head case performances, with the exception of this season.

Anyway, someone mentioned Karen Chen's choreography and maybe she would benefit with a "real" choreographer, but her SP is better than all of the professionally choreographed ladies SPs at Nationals by a long way. Comparing it to Polina's mess of a GWTW program, which she paid Rudy Galindo for, is not accurate in the slightest. She also has great arms, posture, and carriage especially in comparison to some of the more celebrated American women on this forum.