Iconic programs that you find ... overrated

[sarama]

Here's a really controversial opinion — I don't think V/T have ever had a good program. Extremely talented pair who always, always disappointed me with their material.

I totally agree with you. The point is that their first season, understandably, they had extremely generic and bland material, yet were rewarded monstrous PCS. At that point they probably didn't even bother to put some effort into their choreography. And it's kind of a pity because I think diva Trankov and queen Volosozhar could have skated to some very interesting programs. The only exception is probably their Masquerade Waltz, which was very Russian and not original, but it had a beautiful choreo and really suited them. (I guess Aliona at least won the originality contest against Tatiana!)

 

[randomfan]

I honestly never really liked Yuna's Les Mis like many of you. Her 2013 Worlds was clean and impactful and really a great moment, but the program itself is nothing special. I much prefer Adios Nonino.

 

[Amei]

I'm exhausted (been a long day out in the sun) and can't really think of a program right now, but to me 1 move that was always overrated was Michelle Kwan's spiral - a lot of the times she didn't have what I would consider great extension and it always included a super cheesy open mouthed smile.

 

[gourry]

I think many things attribute to be an iconic program. What makes Yuna's Gershwin LP iconic is not just the choreography(which I like a lot by the way).
It's the way she dominated and slayed her competitors by 20~30 points margin all season, and how perfectly she delivered it when it counted the most, when the pressure was the highest and when her chief rival Mao was stronger than ever and added even more pressure to her, that makes it so triumphant and unforgettable.
Yuna is forever associated with the image of her in that gorgeous royal blue dress with the tears of joy, clenching her fists with the sound of roaring audience. That's what makes that particular program iconic IMO.

With all that said, Gershwin is not my top favorite program of her either. If I had to pick only one, it would be 007.

 

[el henry]

Of the programs listed here, I would say only Torvill and Dean's Bolero rates this designation. Indeed, the performance itself does not completely stand the test of time. Still...iconic it is.

....

At this point, I could care less what posters on an FS Board think about Jason's Riverdance (I'll stick with the four million YouTube views), but I am *thrilled* that it is called iconic.:agree:

I don't think a truly iconic program can be called "overrated". I don't care whether any poster thinks Torvill and Dean's Bolero is the worst choreography ever on skates and a total snoozefest. It had a profound effect on ice dancing. (don't know why? Did you watch ice dancing in the 70s and early 80s? Go binge on some vids. You'll understand). Thus, iconic. :yes:

You *can* claim you don't get it, it doesn't speak to you, you don't like it. But by its nature and effect on the sport, Bolero can't be "overrated".

ETA: and your favorite performance, by any gold medal winner with a gazillion fans and beautiful programs, is not iconic. IMHO, the word can only be applied to programs 25 years old or more. Of course, that gives me an edge

 

[Ares]

I'm exhausted (been a long day out in the sun) and can't really think of a program right now, but to me 1 move that was always overrated was Michelle Kwan's spiral - a lot of the times she didn't have what I would consider great extension and it always included a super cheesy open mouthed smile.

You're the first one to pick on Michelle Kwan's spiral, prepare yourself for kwanatic revenge. :eeking: ''Super cheesy open mouthed smile'' - you made me giggle, that's really original element to criticise.

 

[Skater Boy]

Witt's Carmen was overrated imho. Some great posing though.
Torvil and Dean's Bolero - really didnt do it for me

 

[Ares]

At this point, I could care less what posters on an FS Board think about Jason's Riverdance (I'll stick with the four million YouTube views), but I am *thrilled* that it is called iconic.:agree:

I don't think a truly iconic program can be called "overrated". I don't care whether any poster thinks Torvill and Dean's Bolero is the worst choreography ever on skates and a total snoozefest. It had a profound effect on ice dancing. (don't know why? Did you watch ice dancing in the 70s and early 80s? Go binge on some vids. You'll understand). Thus, iconic. :yes:

You *can* claim you don't get it, it doesn't speak to you, you don't like it. But by its nature and effect on the sport, Bolero can't be "overrated".

ETA: and your favorite performance, by any gold medal winner with a gazillion fans and beautiful programs, is not iconic. IMHO, the word can only be applied to programs 25 years old or more. Of course, that gives me an edge

I understand you ... my meaning of overrated was in some more colloquial meaning either way. Something that you don't like all that much or what you don't get or dig.

 

[el henry]

I understand you ... my meaning of overrated was in some more colloquial meaning either way. Something that you don't like all that much or what you don't get or dig.

I understand that. For years and years, I would never acknowledge any merits to John Curry's Don Quixote. He beat Toller!:curse: But it was iconic......

 

[Warwick360]

All of which I find VERY OVERRATED... but then I've always found Kwan overrated.

Damn it.....beat me to it...

But seriously, the first time I saw her, I couldn't understand what the fuss was about, when seeing her video archive on youtube. She didn't have the best jump or the best spin that you couldn't see in other women, and to be fair, those two things are the first things a layperson might notice in figure skating; not the quality of the edge, nor the "interpretation". But I think over the years, I have come to understand and see what made her special.

Having said all of those things above, as much as I like her 1998 Olympics LP, I find it so overtly overrated when people say it was obvious that she should have won (not a Lipinski fan here). Especially when she decided to forgo the 3T-3T, which she definitely needed to stand any chance of gold.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

Of the programs listed here, I would say only Torvill and Dean's Bolero rates this designation. Indeed, the performance itself does not completely stand the test of time. Still...iconic it is.

Others that may be looked back upon with fondness are Yuna Kim's Gershwin and Virtue and Moir's Mahler. I think that you could say they were iconic in the sense of being the centerpiece of the achievement of all-time greats of the sport (even though you might like other performances by these skaters even better).

What is Michelle's "iconic" performance? To me its a tie between Fields of Gold (2002 Olympic exhibition) and East of Eden (1998 World pro). But I suppose most people's choice would be Lyra Angelica as performed at 1998 U.S. Nationals.

Both great but I would go with 2003 Worlds because of the statement she made. The "I'm still here and I'm still winning and no one can touch this performance" Also, the footwork at the end was just OTT, it was just one of those magical moments in skating. The joy Michelle had in those moments, she lit up the entire arena.

 

[TGee]

I'm exhausted (been a long day out in the sun) and can't really think of a program right now, but to me 1 move that was always overrated was Michelle Kwan's spiral - a lot of the times she didn't have what I would consider great extension and it always included a super cheesy open mouthed smile.

And this is where profound differences in cultural context weigh in...

For Russians, and other eastern and central Europeans, a large toothy open mouthed smile by an adult is a negative at best, and at worst the sign of cognitive impairment.

And even in Canada, "a big American smile' may seem or be viewed as false or like too much showmanship attempting to distract from poor performance quality.

I have a lot of mixed emotions about Christopher 'the showman' Bowman who to me epitomizes the 'big smile' American skater type. So, while I expect skaters to do the best to carry a program regardless of the success or failure of any element, I also cringe a bit at glossy, smiling overselling...

When I think of the times that I saw Bowman in person, what stands out most was his almost pumping and preening stroke with arms out while popping a huge smile after every element. Something just looked wrong to me, and it detracted from his actually quite excellent technical elements and skills. And knowing in hindsight that he was very likely high on drugs during those skates [based on his admissions about that entire period of his career], just makes it all the more disturbing....

 

[Mathman]

.It sounds juvenile.

Um...she was fifteen.

Tara's choreographer, Sandra Bezik, told Tara the same thing, that her music was too juvenile, and wouldn't you like to skate to something more substantial and mature, dear?

But Tara would have none of it and in the end Bezik decided that it was more important that Tara skate to the music that she liked instead of music that she was forced into.

 

[el henry]

And this is where profound differences in cultural context weigh in...

For Russians, and other eastern and central Europeans, a large toothy open mouthed smile by an adult is a negative at best, and at worst the sign of cognitive impairment.

And even in Canada, "a big American smile' may seem or be viewed as false or like too much showmanship attempting to distract from poor performance quality.

I have a lot of mixed emotions about Christopher 'the showman' Bowman who to me epitomizes the 'big smile' American skater type. So, while I expect skaters to do the best to carry a program regardless of the success or failure of any element, I also cringe a bit at glossy, smiling overselling...

When I think of the times that I saw Bowman in person, what stands out most was his almost pumping and preening stroke with arms out while popping a huge smile after every element. Something just looked wrong to me, and it detracted from his actually quite excellent technical elements and skills. And knowing in hindsight that he was very likely high on drugs during those skates [based on his admissions about that entire period of his career], just makes it all the more disturbing....

Whereas that is what I *loved* about Christopher, more than his mastery of the elements: his open manner, his unafraid razzmatazz, and knowing his issues now only makes me sad and wistful watching the vids, not disturbing....

Probably maybe is the cultural difference

 

[aa456]

Yulia's Schindler's list. did nothing for me, sorry.

Yuna's my most favorite skater but i guess Gershwin would be one of her programs that i watch the least. I don't find it boring per se, she just made it look so very easy.

I would put Caro's bolero and Yuna's Les Mis in the same bucket of "not the most iconic choreography or program but performed to the hilt" by these ladies.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

I'm exhausted (been a long day out in the sun) and can't really think of a program right now, but to me 1 move that was always overrated was Michelle Kwan's spiral - a lot of the times she didn't have what I would consider great extension and it always included a super cheesy open mouthed smile.

It was where she put the spiral in her program, she knew exactly where in the music to put her spiral The audience always responded loudly because they loved it and looked forward to it. She smiled because she knew they loved it. The spiral was not easy. She held it with amazing control, her free leg never shook or wavered, she held an edge the whole time and moved from an inside edge to an outside edge.
Sasha Cohen also had a strong spiral, but never held it for too long, she opted for spiral variations.
Spirals are not appreciated anymore which is just sad. To me, spirals are figure skating, they exemplify the beauty of a blade on the ice, the flow and gracefulness of figure skating.
But, to each his/her own.

 

[momrk]

Re Torvill and Dean's Bolero- when I saw it happen I was mesmerized and made me think ice dancing was not so silly (sorry- now I love ice dancing, just back then, did not get it). Now when I see it, I don't see the magic I did then so maybe it had to do with seeing it at that time?

Underrated? Kwan's Red Violin, still one of my favorites.

 

[karne]

Hmm.

Lipnitskaya's Schindler's List - mostly because I had been watching a real Schindler's List all season and to see everyone going gaga over the cute little girl in the red coat with no expression was :scratch3:

Virtue/Moir's Carmen and their Sochi FD - Carmen was just being vulgar for the shock value, not actually a good program, and their Olympic FD was boring, bland and totally disconnected from the music. I was quite disappointed to sit down the watch the Olympics and find that the "battle" that had been hyped to the gills was, in my eyes, quite one-sided.

Yuna Kim's Adios Nonino - people kept calling it "passionate", and all I could think was, "so give me some expression!". Bland, boring, skated with the "I don't want to be here" expression.

I have more I'm sure, but my brain isn't running at full speed yet. I'll come back later.

 

[skateluvr]

Dean was a great choreographer and they performed with perfection and perfect unison. If they made a mistake I never saw it. I think Bolero suffers from being performed too many times over the decades and they also changed it a bit for easier performances as they got old. I can't believe anyone would ever say they were ever over rated. It is just that they suffered from too much exposure and then got tens al the time at all those cheesy pro comps of the nineties.

To borrow Mathman using a song as analogous I will submit that we just saw Bolero done to death by the team over the years- when I first heard Debbie Boone sing " You Light up my life" I thought it was a nice song. Not great, not amazing vocals but a decent song sung by a young ingenue daughter of Pa Boone as my Dad said I called him in toddler days as we watched his tv show. But for some reason this song got so much airplay I grew to hate it as did many people.

[snip]

But back in that day right before my life changed forever I saw 1984 Olympics and the only thing that I remember from that is Bolero. I think it may be the most iconic program from the last century anyway. This century? I can think of no ice dance performance that is so memorable. Can you?

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

''Super cheesy open mouthed smile'' - you made me giggle, that's really original element to criticise.

When I joined the online skating fandom, the Tara/Michelle fan wars were going strong. Kwan's "calculated" smile was one of the biggest things her very vocal detractors picked apart. One poster even measured the circumference of her smile at 1998 Nationals and at Nagano to prove she wasn't an authentic skater and everything she did was planned and calculated. So to me, that criticism is far from original and more of a holdover from ancient battles that were fought.

One program, that I think gets a lot of praise that I think is way overrated is Virtue/Moir's "Carmen". IMO, people only liked it because "Seasons" ended up being a lame program. I never really got Scott and Tessa in that program as they still looked too innocent and white bread during it. It all seemed to be innocent pretending to be sexy than actually sexy. I saw the effort and Scott and Tessa tried hard (roar and all), but I didn't really buy that program. Even the actual choreography (whether it be the original one earlier in the season or the more competitive/streamlined version at Worlds) was lackluster and with sometimes no meaning behind some of the moves. I get they were trying for a more abstract interpretation of Carmen but I felt a lot of the choreography was meaningless. Anyway, the lack of real sexual feeling from them is why I was surprised some fans found the program to be "vulgar" or "pornographic" (I think they were D/W fans looking for something to criticize) when I found the program to not go very far at all.

V/M's Pink Floyd FD is by fair their most underrated work and one of their best programs ever. I thought it and Delobel/Schoenfelder's FD to Pink Floyd were the class of that season by far and no other ice dance routine came close. I'd rank Pechelat/Bourzat's "Circus" and Faiella/Scali's FD third.