Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

[karne]

My issues on PCS at 4CC, attempting to detangle

- Nathan: should NOT have been 11 points higher than Boyang, but also, NEVER should be above Jason.

- Chan: No-one should be getting 92 PCS by falling on their butt. Nobody.

- Uno: He is NOT within a point of Chan on PCS. Also, nobody should be getting 91 PCS by falling on their butt. Nobody.

- Hanyu: Probably should have had the highest PCS but not sure it should have been that high - he became very workmanlike after the pop

- Brendan: should always get higher. (sorry, had to add some levity)

Basically, EVERYONE WAS ALL WRONG. PCS is being used for all the wrong thing, but it's not being PUNISHED enough when someone screws up (depending, of course, on who you are/where you're from), but I don't think you should just be able to land quads and boom 88 PCS, but the 88 PCS also makes me extra cranky because you can't tell me that wasn't a little bit influenced by the STUPID 91 PCS that Chen got at US Nats.

 

[Yatagarasu]

STUPID 91 PCS that Chen got at US Nats.

Just wait for it. Worlds is coming. If he goes clean, even with a potential 6th quad, he'll reach that.

 

[Kelly]

Chen skated after Chan and Uno in the long, so since Chan and Uno can get 92 and 91 PCS respectively with 2 falls each, it's not outrageous PCS for Chen.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Chan was the dominant skater in the pre-quad era but now he just is not technically competitive. As great as his edges and transitions are, he cannot win competitions on PCS alone unless he skates fairly cleanly while the top quad masters falter drastically. Whining about other skaters PCS scores won't change that fact.

This confuses me, did anybody say Chan should have won? It's - if at all - about if Hanyu should have won. But AFAIK the majority of people (even though not the OP) aren't complaining about Nathan winning, the complaints are about his scores in general. There are rules for the scoring, if the numbers at the end don't seem to be following them, that is a reason for concern and criticism outside of the standings itself too.

Nice program, Nathan. Not bad for a 15 year old. Think I'll get out my scorecard and count crossovers and transitions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbKb3RVPVSw

Given how dismissive you sound of the 'transitions' with that whole scorecard stuff, maybe you really should. So you get an idea about how to tell intricate transitions and how it actually requires some sense about FS to look for that (contrary to the apparently up-coming believe that its just something 'armchair judges' without any real knowledge about FS who can count to 10 can do but what do I know, I thought most FS fans could call crossovers, but eh).
Anyway, I'm not sure what that video is supposed to show. Isn't the main discussion point if Nathan is overmarked for what he is currently doing (especially in his LP)? Which is, you know, a completely different topic than 'will Nathan ever have artistry/programs/transitions at all'? Yes, I guess if that was what he would decide to focus on, Nathan could have well balanced programs right now. But that's not what he's doing. He's focusing on qauds. He gets rightful points for quads (=BV). He should not get points for what he could potentially do, if he right now isn't doing it. You are free to count transitions in that old program though and then later throw in that he could do 31.5 disclaimer: random number transitions already, if he only wanted to.

 

[Warwick360]

Yes. She was attacked a lot, especially from North American fans. They opened many threads about how she's mimicking her way to medals. They also opened threads judging the way she would go through puberty. Poor little girl.
But to be fair, miss Lipnitkaya at least had many transitions.
Mr Chen has almost no noticeable transitions.

Was going to say the same thing. Say what one might about her SS at the time in comparisons to her competitors, but personally, I felt she ticked the rest of the boxes very well. Not just for her Schindler's list but for her SP as well.

 

[chuckm]

Did we really need a THIRD thread complaining about Nathan Chen's PCS scores? There are already two existing threads.

 

[Sugiady]

I was annoyed by the pcs in 4cc man single.
But after the SP of Asia Winter Game's man single, I don't know what to say about the pcs anymore…

 

[Mathman]

Pandora's Box: 2017 Men's PCSs

Quick! What was the last thing to come out of Pandora's Box?

(Answer: Hooe. )

 

[Sugiady]

Quick! What was the last thing to come out of Pandora's Box?

(Answer: Hooe. )

The thing haven't come out is hope.

Sad story.

 

[shinekitty]

Oh, I’m overwhelmed with all your thoughts. I started this thread to express my opinion because the 4CC was such a wonderful experience tinged with a little of grief. After watching Nathan Chen’s program, I could only remember the jump/jump/jump/-the end. There is no great details or spirits. It’s understandable Nathan Chen is only 17 and is still developing his skills and artistry. But how on earth he got 88.86 PCS in comparison to the scores and performances of Yuzuru Hanyu, Patrick Chan, Jason Brown and Misha Ge who also competed that afternoon?

Now, this young man is the crowned national champion and a record holder. I’m not denying his achievement, however, is his jumping style/skating performance a good model for the next generation skaters? Which direction is this sport being pushed towards? Is the judging system fair and unbiased?

I’m trying to get our voices being heard by the power that be a.k.a ISU or whoever is behind the game. There is no perfect world, but something need to be done. Sorry I can’t reply all the comments but happy to hear different voices and discussions.

Freya&Kitty

 

[AppleEmperor]

The thing is, stuff like keeping up good SS throughout the program is extremely difficult. It's sad if skaters who spend a lot of energy working on that aspect of skating don't get duly rewarded for it. I hope young skaters do not lose motivation to practice SS, because that's also a huge part of skating as sport. Yes, the sport side, not artistry. It's exhausting!!

 

[Ophelia]

Where were all these people who are griping about Nathan's PCS when Yulia Lip was getting PCS almost has high as Carolina or Mao by the time of Europeans and the Olympics. I don't think a skater has ever had their PCS rise so fast in such a short amount of time over one season and it's not like she was some kind of great artist on the ice.

Also griping.

 

[Suze]

Excuse my ignorance, but I was under the impression PCS scores were how federations were able to play their political game, not an actual representation of how artistic or well-performed a program was executed. I figured Nathan got his high PCS marks on the basis of his federation (USFSA) knowing the game and having the weight to throw around (although ultimately I was in agreement that he should be the overall winner at 4CC).

We saw in 2002 a peek of the negotiating that goes on behind the judges' curtains. I am not so naive to think that was abolished with ISU's establishment of COP system. It merely took cover under a different guise... which I'm calling PCS.

Just my opinion, of course. No actual evidence... yet.

 

[4everchan]

Did we really need a THIRD thread complaining about Nathan Chen's PCS scores? There are already two existing threads.

we have how many gracie threads? 10??? 15??? let the boy have his fame

PS I didn't post in the other Chen threads... i barely posted in any of the Gracie threads... i don't need either kinds but it's a forum and there's no issue making threads up.

What I DO find interesting about this particular one is that it is coming from an OP who was THERE in the arena.

 

[GraceYee]

A few Tr,poor SS,apparently off-the-cuff PE which some skaters show in the 4cc,such as Nathan Chen.
His Lp is a jump show, it can not be called a program, but got 88 points of PCS, in addition, some of his jumps do not meet goe's bonus points but get points，which is unfair to other players.
Often it is the beautiful jump and rich，performative program which attract more and more people to see and remember.

 

[nekun]

I was not in the arena, so I watched some fancam of men LP to get the point what actualy is the OP means

somehow I get it, saw the official broadcast vs fancam. Figure Jumping is sounded so harsh, but the reality is there...

 

[zhang]

I quite approve of your point of view.

I was lucky to watch the ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships in Gangeung. The competition was wonderful but I have some concerns regarding the PCS score of the Men’s Free Skate.

According to the ISU guidelines, PCS is judged by: ss (skating skills) / tr (transitions) / pe (performance/execution) / ch (choreography) / in (interpretation).

But Nathan Chen’s PCS is clearly overscored in comparison to the marks of other skaters.

His SS: skating speed is slow, unsmooth, very immature. But he receives an average of 9?

His TR: transition is simple and even without transition during many sections of the program. But he got an average of 8.7?

His PE: Can I say he was expressionless? And where is the 8.9 coming from?

His CH: very vague, no clear subject and poor in details. And he got an average of 8.9

His IN: the body movement is very stiff and out of sync with music yet the mark he got is an average of 8.9!

But Nathan was awarded with 88.86 PCS, while the scores for Yuzuru Hanyu, Patrick Chan, Jason Brown, Misha Ge were 94.34, 92.58, 85.72 and 76, respectively. His score is inflated considering the performance and scores from the other skaters at the competition.

I know Nathan Chen is only 17 but skaters should be judged by their skills and performance not by experience or age. In my opinion, he is a jumper not a skater and his awful skating should not be rewarded with those ridiculous marks. If the judges keep throwing huge scores to these kind of skates, it will cause unfairness and unfortunate damage to this sport. After all, we paid the very expensive tickets to attend the events to watch Figure Skating NOT Figure JUMPING!

I urge the ISU can take action into this matter and ensure the Evaluation Criteria of PCS is adhered to the guideline and not based on the number of Quadruple jumps.

Freya&Kitty

pcs is a very subjective thing,but also should according to the rules to give corresponding point.ISU should give a reasonable explanation!!

 

[xiaowaziwaziwaziwa]

Figrue skating isn't only jump

I was lucky to watch the ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships in Gangeung. The competition was wonderful but I have some concerns regarding the PCS score of the Men’s Free Skate.

According to the ISU guidelines, PCS is judged by: ss (skating skills) / tr (transitions) / pe (performance/execution) / ch (choreography) / in (interpretation).

But Nathan Chen’s PCS is clearly overscored in comparison to the marks of other skaters.

His SS: skating speed is slow, unsmooth, very immature. But he receives an average of 9?

His TR: transition is simple and even without transition during many sections of the program. But he got an average of 8.7?

His PE: Can I say he was expressionless? And where is the 8.9 coming from?

His CH: very vague, no clear subject and poor in details. And he got an average of 8.9

His IN: the body movement is very stiff and out of sync with music yet the mark he got is an average of 8.9!

But Nathan was awarded with 88.86 PCS, while the scores for Yuzuru Hanyu, Patrick Chan, Jason Brown, Misha Ge were 94.34, 92.58, 85.72 and 76, respectively. His score is inflated considering the performance and scores from the other skaters at the competition.

I know Nathan Chen is only 17 but skaters should be judged by their skills and performance not by experience or age. In my opinion, he is a jumper not a skater and his awful skating should not be rewarded with those ridiculous marks. If the judges keep throwing huge scores to these kind of skates, it will cause unfairness and unfortunate damage to this sport. After all, we paid the very expensive tickets to attend the events to watch Figure Skating NOT Figure JUMPING!

I urge the ISU can take action into this matter and ensure the Evaluation Criteria of PCS is adhered to the guideline and not based on the number of Quadruple jumps.

Freya&Kitty

 

[Lysambre]

I was annoyed by the pcs in 4cc man single.
But after the SP of Asia Winter Game's man single, I don't know what to say about the pcs anymore…

The Asian Winter Games aren't ISU sanctionned, meaning they can get as crazy about scoring as the US Nationals.

 

[xiaowaziwaziwaziwa]

Jump is jump,performance is performance !