Senior B's v Senior GP's

[CaroLiza_fan]

I have reached that weird stage where I am more interested in what is happening in the Senior B's than I am in the Senior GP's.

For the past week, I have been concentrating on watching the Ice Star from Minsk and the Hallowe'en Cup from Budapest. I haven't even looked near Skate America.

And this week I will be concentrating on the Golden Bear from Zagreb rather than Skate Canada.

A large part of the reason for this is that the Senior GP Series is no longer being shown on TV. In the past, I would have concentrated on watching the Senior GP's in the company of my favourite British Eurosport commentators, and not bothered with the Senior B's at all. But now, the Senior GP Series just has an internet livestream with no commentary.

So, when I am having to go to the internet anyway to get my skating fix, I am finding that I am more drawn to watch the "B" events than the GP events.

Why?

Well, I suppose one of the reasons is because more of the skaters I have particularly liked over the years are now competing at Senior B level. Especially when it comes to skaters that I have "adopted" on here. Another is that you get to see more skaters from smaller Feds, and more up-and-coming young skaters, than you do with the Senior GP's.

Come to think of it, you get to see more skaters full stop at the Senior B's than you do at Senior GP's. That is a thing I have never liked about the Senior GP's - having between 8 and 12 entrants per category just does not provide enough entertainment for fans. (Personally, I feel 16 entrants for all categories would be perfect). That said, I do find having no limit on the number of entries in the Junior GP's can make some segments too drawn out. So, the numbers you get in the Senior B's are a happy medium.

A thing I always liked about the "normal" Senior B's and National Championships is that they have competitions for all levels. And because of that, you get to discover skaters before other fans who just watch the bigger international events. Hey, when I watched the Lombardia Trophy in 2015, I became a fan of a lot of young Italian skaters who are now making a name for themselves on the international circuit.

However, since then, the Challenger Series has been created. And, like most of the other events that are now in the Challenger Series, the Lombardia has switched from catering for all levels to being Senior level only. Watching this year's edition a few weeks ago, I really did feel it had lost it's gloss with losing the lower level competitions.

That said, the competitions they did have were good.

And that is the thing. Even though the Senior B's are not the top rung of the ladder, you still get good and enjoyable competitions. Especially now that there are so many top quality skaters, and not enough slots for them all to be able to compete at the Senior GP Series.

Of course, it is nice to see the best of the best competing in the Senior GP Series. But, despite what the TV broadcasters may try to lead us to believe, there is more to figure skating than those at the very top of the sport.

How do other people feel?

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Miller]

The ISU isn't making the most of its Challenger Series. You get some fabulous performances on there, but online coverage tends to be very patchy. Really something like Alena Kostornaia's fabulous free skate at Finlandia needs to be on an official ISU channel rather than relying on fans uploading videos that may or may not be deleted.

 

[DenissVFan]

I like Challengers and other senior Bs because of a greater variety of skaters and less drama and discourse surrounding these competitions. I also support skaters fighting for the minimum TES for Euros/4CC/Worlds, so I'm interested in who got it after each competition.

The Challenger series should also be streamed on YouTube. I thought it would happen before the GP streams.

 

[Jeanie19]

I like Challengers and other senior Bs because of a greater variety of skaters and less drama and discourse surrounding these competitions. I also support skaters fighting for the minimum TES for Euros/4CC/Worlds, so I'm interested in who got it after each competition.

The Challenger series should also be streamed on YouTube. I thought it would happen before the GP streams.

I totally agree. :agree: I enjoy these competitions more. I think these up and coming skaters are a joy to watch, and when they skate well there is such happiness from them.

 

[EdgeCall]

... there is more to figure skating than those at the very top of the sport.

Hear, hear!

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

The ISU isn't making the most of its Challenger Series. You get some fabulous performances on there, but online coverage tends to be very patchy. Really something like Alena Kostornaia's fabulous free skate at Finlandia needs to be on an official ISU channel rather than relying on fans uploading videos that may or may not be deleted.

I like Challengers and other senior Bs because of a greater variety of skaters and less drama and discourse surrounding these competitions. I also support skaters fighting for the minimum TES for Euros/4CC/Worlds, so I'm interested in who got it after each competition.

The Challenger series should also be streamed on YouTube. I thought it would happen before the GP streams.

I totally agree. :agree: I enjoy these competitions more. I think these up and coming skaters are a joy to watch, and when they skate well there is such happiness from them.

Whilst I agree with basically everything you are all saying, it is still my opinion that there should not be a Challenger Series. All Senior B's should have equal status. But, as it stands, some are more equal than others.

Plus, as I have already alluded to, I believe that having Challenger status has had an adverse impact on some particular Senior B's. There are events that used to have a wide variety of competitions included in the schedule, that now only have the four competitions so as to fit within the target length of a Challenger event. Admittedly, some (like the Ice Star) have got around this by holding the Junior and Novice competitions as a separate event at the start of the week (or even at a different time), but others have just scapped them.

For me, that is not fair on the kids that are coming through the ranks. Because they can learn so much from being on the same billing as the more experienced Senior skaters. And I don't just mean on the ice - they can learn about how to conduct themselves off ice as well. Being on the same billing also gets them known to the people that normally just watch the "top" skaters. Which is not just important for gaining a fanbase, but is also important as these people could be potential sposors.

And that is why I am so disappointed that the British Fed have decided to hold just Advanced Novice to Senior levels in the main National Championships in December, with the other levels held in a separate event in April. Because, let's be blunt, very few people are going to bother going to the April event. The fact that the December event will be broadcast but the April event won't says volumes.

Which brings us back to the issue of streaming. It is a mess. There is a model that works brilliantly. It is called the ISU Junior Grand Prix YouTube Channel. And rather than being replicated for other events / series, it's model has been completely ignored.

Whilst there are major problems associated with using YouTube (i.e. copyright claims on music), it is still the most user-friendly free streaming site out there. I say "free" because the latest update to the Eurosport Player has brought in some major improvements, including a return of being able to rewind to the start of broadcasts from the main linear channels, rather than just being able to wind back 5 minutes. That said, the new layout of the website is awful.

Daily Motion can't be re-wound and is far too memory intensive. The site that the Italian competitions used to use wasn't that bad, but they have now switched to using YouTube.

The Eurovision Sports site is good, but the problem is that because it is owned by the EBU, it is tied in with TV deals. Also they take far too long to archive things. And a thing I really hated about it is that, if you are watching an archived video, and a live event starts on the channel you are on, it automatically switches to the live event. Which is really annoying if you don't know where exactly you were in the video when you subsequently go back to it.

But, I digress. When the ISU were trying to improve the Senior B's a few years back, they shouldn't have just created a new series for some of the more established ones. Instead, they should have helped the organisers of all the Senior B's to bring them all up to the same standard.

And getting them to provide livestreams of the same standard should have been part of this. The ISU should have told the organisers of each event:

"Look, here is the YouTube Channel that we have for the Junior GP Series. We will set up a similar channel for your competitions, and then hand it over to you. And when you hold an event, we want you to do exactly the same as we do on this channel. You can decide whether you want commentary or not. But, if you do have it, do it the same way as it is done for the Junior GP Series. And because we set it up, there should not be as many issues with music copyrights".​

And, as I have said in a couple of threads recently, they should also have advised the organisers not to play background music in the arena between routines, so as to further minimise copyright issues.

Then, when the TV deals for their own events went belly-up, the ISU should have created a replica of the Junior GP Channel for the Senior GP Series. And another for the European Championships. And another for Four Continents. And so on for each of their events. And then have links to each of them on their main YouTube Channel (which I do think needs a better name than "SkatingISU").

We would have ended up with a whole pile of official YouTube Channels:

• ISU Figure Skating [news, interviews, etc.]
• ISU Junior Grand Prix Series
• ISU Grand Prix Series
• ISU European Championships
• ISU Four Continents Championships
• ISU Junior World Championships
• ISU World Championships
• ISU World Team Trophy
• DEU Deutschen Eislauf-Union [for German Championships; Nebelhorn Trophy; NRW Trophy; Bavarian Open; etc.]
• FFSG Fédération Française des Sports de Glace [for French Championships; Masters de Patinage; Coupe de Nice; etc.]
• FISG Federazione Italiana Sport del Ghiaccio [for Italian Championships; Lombardia Trophy; Mezzaluna Cup; Merano Cup; Egna Spring Trophy; etc.]
• SKrZ Slovenský krasokorčuliarsky zväz [for Slovak Junior Championships; Ondrej Nepela Memorial; Tirnavia Ice Cup; GP Of Bratislava; etc.]
• etc.
• etc.

But, this is all getting away from the original subject of the thread.

At the moment, I am enjoying the Senior B's more than the Senior GP's. And, although strange, that is fine because they serve different purposes. But, I am also enjoying the "normal" Senior B's more than the Senior B's with Challenger status. And that is the exact opposite of what the ISU intended to be the case.

And that should not be the intention anyway, because all Senior B's serve the same purpose. There should not be a distinction between them. I do think including Senior B's in a series gives a boost to their status. But, it should not just be an autumn-long series that only includes some of them. It should be a season-long series that includes ALL of them. Kinda like the season-long World Cup that the FIS has in each of their ski disciplines. But it should be emphasised that the skaters are not epected to be competing every week, but rather can dip in and out whenever they want.

So, the ISU needs to get their act together and do some real overhauling of the approach taken for both the GP and "B" events.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[MGstyle]

You make excellent points, @caroliza_fan :agree:
For the similar reasons, I am also finding the Jr. competitions more interesting and exciting, in the sense of pure competition, in the last few years.
I have also discovered B events are excellent alternative if you want to attend a live competition. The costs of admissions are practically mere formality (with the exception of Lombardia), some tickets don't even exist, and you can enjoy a quality competition without the fussy personnel continuously telling you to where to sit, go, or can't go, etc. etc. :thumbsup:

 

[Miller]

Whole post.

Totally agree with you over separate channels for the different types of competitions, we don't know yet whether the Skating ISU channel is 'the future' or it's just some sort of stopgap until hopefully they get more TV deals, but really separate channels have to be the way forward and especially for something like the Challenger series which isn't going to get TV coverage any time soon.

Re Challengers vs 'Other B's I don't know the history. Did they all have 7 judges and count for Seasons Bests, which seems to be the difference between them, they both counting for ranking points (different obviously) and minimum TES scores. Is it the case because of declining interest/difficulty getting judges they had to go down to 5 judges, or was it more of a conscious effort to promote the Challengers? However with the latter they certainly haven't done so, you certainly never seem to get anything re them on the ISU's official channel - perhaps the business with losing TV rights will get them to come up with a much more coherent strategy in the future.

Agree with you re Challengers in the spring, it seems to very odd to have all non-Championship competitions that count for Seasons Bests in the Autumn. What if you're a skater from a big federation that is injured in the Autumn, can't qualify for the Championships because of your injury, but then are OK in the spring but lose out on the chance of a SB and hence GP slot because of this. 1 or 2 of these would certainly be a good idea.

However what I would say is the best skaters will always tend to towards certain early season events as warm up for the GPs. Is this why the Challengers were formed in the first place? It certainly seems to make sense from a 'pyramidal' point of view, even if they haven't followed through with it to the maximum effect. I can't imagine top skaters suddenly going to other early season Senior B's, however they certainly do so for 1 or 2 spring ones, the Challenge Cup in The Hague certainly seems to ring a bell. Personally I'd be looking to make 1 or 2 like these formal Challengers (sorry).

 

[surimi]

I like both GP and senior Bs as I like watching all skaters, not just the top level. I wish all bigger skating events had a stream and archived coverage as my watching always takes a long time - with the exception of GP streams it's evening by evening watching where I stay awake for one group, two at best, and that's it. And if some copyright watchdogs come up in arms in the meantime, I am left with just a few isolated videos. I wish ISU would deal with this accessibility issue.

I will also say that due to a limited budget combined with certain standards (refusing to sit so high you rely on the jumbotron, or to stay at a shabby hostel), I can only travel to European B events so those are the only comps I watch live. And so far I have been very satisfied. I think I prefer them to GPs but hard to tell since I've never attended a GP event. But I really appreciated the atmosphere at Nepela, Challenge Cup and Finlandia which are the only ones I've been to so far. Also, the security isn't too strict there which makes me happy, and one doesn't get their backpack checked for drinks, unlike European Championships. I'm definitely on the challenger/senior B fan bandwagon.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Totally agree with you over separate channels for the different types of competitions, we don't know yet whether the Skating ISU channel is 'the future' or it's just some sort of stopgap until hopefully they get more TV deals, but really separate channels have to be the way forward and especially for something like the Challenger series which isn't going to get TV coverage any time soon.

Re Challengers vs 'Other B's I don't know the history. Did they all have 7 judges and count for Seasons Bests, which seems to be the difference between them, they both counting for ranking points (different obviously) and minimum TES scores. Is it the case because of declining interest/difficulty getting judges they had to go down to 5 judges, or was it more of a conscious effort to promote the Challengers? However with the latter they certainly haven't done so, you certainly never seem to get anything re them on the ISU's official channel - perhaps the business with losing TV rights will get them to come up with a much more coherent strategy in the future.

Agree with you re Challengers in the spring, it seems to very odd to have all non-Championship competitions that count for Seasons Bests in the Autumn. What if you're a skater from a big federation that is injured in the Autumn, can't qualify for the Championships because of your injury, but then are OK in the spring but lose out on the chance of a SB and hence GP slot because of this. 1 or 2 of these would certainly be a good idea.

However what I would say is the best skaters will always tend to towards certain early season events as warm up for the GPs. Is this why the Challengers were formed in the first place? It certainly seems to make sense from a 'pyramidal' point of view, even if they haven't followed through with it to the maximum effect. I can't imagine top skaters suddenly going to other early season Senior B's, however they certainly do so for 1 or 2 spring ones, the Challenge Cup in The Hague certainly seems to ring a bell. Personally I'd be looking to make 1 or 2 like these formal Challengers (sorry).

Just want to pick up on the point you made about the role of Senior B’s, and expand on it.

Senior B’s play an important role no matter what the time of year. And the roles vary according to the level of the skater.


Senior Skaters

• The Senior B’s in summer / autumn provide a chance for skaters to test out their new programmes and make adjustments to their content before they make their appearances in the Senior GP Series and / or National Championships.
  
  
• The Senior B’s in January and February provide a chance to show your most current form and put in a late claim for a slot at the World Championships.
  
  
• The Senior B’s after Worlds give you the opportunity to try to end the season on a high, before concentrating on the upcoming season.

Junior Skaters

• The Senior B’s in summer / early autumn provide a chance for skaters to test out their new programmes and make adjustments to their content before they make their appearances in the Junior GP Series.
  
  
• The Senior B’s in the late autumn provide a chance to test out changes in the run up to National Championships.
  
  
• The Senior B’s in January and February allow the skaters to remain competition fit in the wait for Junior Worlds to come around (and, if they hadn’t been selected for Junior Worlds after Nationals, to put in a claim for a slot).
  
  
• The Senior B’s after Junior Worlds give you the opportunity to try to end the season on a high, before concentrating on the upcoming season.

Novice And Younger Skaters

It is slightly different for the younger skaters, because the only Major for skaters younger than Junior level is the International Childrens Games, which are for Novice skaters but are not held every year. So, Nationals are the main event for these skaters.

• The Senior B’s in summer / autumn provide a chance for skaters to test out their new programmes and make adjustments to their content before they make their appearances in the National Championships.
  
  
• The Senior B’s in winter / spring allow the skaters to remain competition fit in the wait for the next season to come along.

And this is why I get annoyed that only selected autumn Senior B’s are getting special treatment by the ISU. Because they all have important roles to play.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[ladyjane]

I've been attending the Challenge Cup for many years now (except when the organisors skipped a year) and I always enjoy it. My one negative is that there's never any Dance, but thankfully there is a Pairs competition. I believe the event is used by some for a last bid at the minimum TES for Worlds, just as you noted CaroLiza_fan. Also in non-Olympic years, I understand some skaters use it to get some additional competition mileage before World's. Admittedly, since the Japanese federation has been sending single skaters to this event, the audience had become rather bigger - which is wonderful. Ticket prices are really low. I paid 15 Euro for a Whole Event ticket, including the junior and novice competitions which are also held. So, yeah, I love senior B's and they don't have to be Challengers at all to still be fun.

 

[DSQ]

I couldn’t agree more Caroliza and I think CS and Senior B have much more variety in skaters even if they might not be the pinnacle of skill.

Hopefully the streaming can improve so every competition is at least streamed at the Lombardia level. The Austrian CS stream was bad.

 

[medoroa]

I enjoy senior Bs and if I'm going to an event I make sure to watch the whole SP competitions, but one thing CaroLiza_Fan noted as a positive is a huge negative to me -- there are too many skaters there and the competitions take too long. This is okay when I attend live, since I'm typically on vacation and taking out a whole day to attend the event, but watching skating for hours upon hours, week after week, is just not feasible or enjoyable for me. I love watching skaters of various levels, but I can't properly appreciate a skater if they're the 42nd one I see just on that day and the 89th one I see just at that competition! And then that typically repeats itself just four or five days later... There is a limit to the human brain and how long it can keep its focus (or there is to mine, anyway).

I do think the ISU should capitalize more on B events and draw more attention to them, but in order to do so properly, they need a commentator and an editor. I've already seen complaints about the ISU GP youtube streams from people who are not die-hard fans (and therefore probably do not post to forums like this one!) saying the sport is enjoyable to them but not when they're left to their own devices without commentators to try to figure out what's happening. New fans or casual fans will not watch 8-hour streams of B events even if they are made readily available by the ISU. An edited catch-up video of competition highlights, where a knowledgeable person provides context and commentary, that might be attractive. With "highlights" I of course don't mean the "top skaters"; it could be skaters who attend from unusual countries in skating (Mongolia was a recent one I enjoyed), skaters who have interesting personal histories, skater who have good specific skills although they might not have won, etc.

That would add something new and attractive for the ISU and for new fans and it would be worth putting money into. I mean, if die-hard fans want to watch B events, they already know how to, so the ISU getting involved wouldn't provide anything of much worth or attract more viewers. And I actually I personally like streaming like the Nepela Trophy had, it's more interesting and closer to the real-life experience than the usual multi-camera edit from major competitions. (ISU should invest money into Bs that don't have video streaming yet, though.)

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I enjoy senior Bs and if I'm going to an event I make sure to watch the whole SP competitions, but one thing CaroLiza_Fan noted as a positive is a huge negative to me -- there are too many skaters there and the competitions take too long. This is okay when I attend live, since I'm typically on vacation and taking out a whole day to attend the event, but watching skating for hours upon hours, week after week, is just not feasible or enjoyable for me. I love watching skaters of various levels, but I can't properly appreciate a skater if they're the 42nd one I see just on that day and the 89th one I see just at that competition! And then that typically repeats itself just four or five days later... There is a limit to the human brain and how long it can keep its focus (or there is to mine, anyway).

You make a very good point. And that is actually how I felt a few times this season when I put on the computer to watch a Junior GP and found that the Ladies SP was over 5 hours long...

For me, the Senior Grands Prix do not have enough entries. In contrast, the Junior Grands Prix (particularly Junior Ladies) often have too many entries. But, although the number of entries can vary greatly, I have found that the numbers you tend to get at Senior B's work for me.

I agree that there is only so long you can watch before you start losing attention. That is why I like the way that at Senior B's and National Championships you get to see a variety of categories and levels. Having this variety stops you from getting bored from seeing the same type of thing over and over again. Indeed, it was the lack of variety in the Compulsory Dances that led me to not start watching Ice Dance regularly until after they were scrapped.

Although I haven't been to a figure skating competition yet, I do try to think in terms of a spectator (or an official ). For example, are the intervals for resurfacings frequent enough and long enough to allow everybody to have the opportunity to go to the toilet without missing any of the action? Is there a long enough break in proceedings at meal times to allow everybody to queue up at food stalls and buy something and then have time to eat it?

A thing I have often argued for is that the groups should be reduced to 4 entrants across all categories, as a safety measure to lessen the chances of collisions happening during warm-ups. And this has often resulted in counter arguments that it would make segments too long. And whilst I acknowledge that the time from the start of the segment to the end of the segment would increase, it would also mean more frequent breaks to go to the toilet or get a snack to eat. Or, just to stretch your legs. Most importantly in terms of the competition, it would give the officials more chances to refresh themselves, because what they do must be so monotonous. And we want them to be fresh for the whole competition so that they can score things correctly.

I do think the ISU should capitalize more on B events and draw more attention to them, but in order to do so properly, they need a commentator and an editor. I've already seen complaints about the ISU GP youtube streams from people who are not die-hard fans (and therefore probably do not post to forums like this one!) saying the sport is enjoyable to them but not when they're left to their own devices without commentators to try to figure out what's happening. New fans or casual fans will not watch 8-hour streams of B events even if they are made readily available by the ISU.

The streams I have been catching up on from the Hallowe'en Cup the past few days are 11h 55m long. Seeing that number written in a box is enough to scare people off. Which is why I feel that it is necessary to cut videos of individual routines. So that people who do not want to watch a whole stream can easily pick and choose the skaters they particularly want to see.

But, it is also unnecessary to have such long livestreams. I liked the way that for the second day of the event, the Ice Star was ending their streams at the start of resurfacings, and starting a new stream when competition resumed. Although you were only losing 10 minutes here and there, psychologically it made it more managable to watch it. The problem was that they did not properly label the videos. It was just the same generic title used for all the videos. So, if you were not watching live, it made it a nightmare to find what you were looking for.

Mind you, all the Ice Star videos now have copyright claims against them from the same company, so it doesn't really matter how they are labelled!

An edited catch-up video of competition highlights, where a knowledgeable person provides context and commentary, that might be attractive. With "highlights" I of course don't mean the "top skaters"; it could be skaters who attend from unusual countries in skating (Mongolia was a recent one I enjoyed), skaters who have interesting personal histories, skater who have good specific skills although they might not have won, etc.

That is actually a very good idea. A lot of highlights packages do focus too much on the podium finishers, and not enough on the stories from the event. Like, it really frustrated me when Eurosport's highlights packages only showed the Top 3, when there were other routines that were more enjoyable to watch that were left out. Or significant performances (e.g. Misha Ge's last ever competition routine wasn't shown).

Admittedly, putting together something like you propose would probably be too expensive for smaller events run by National Federations to do. But, there is no excuse for not getting it from ISU run events. Yet, we don't get it.

It's the same with commentary. Using the Junior GP's as an example, having Ted talking in between routines adds so much to the experience. Introducing the skaters, and telling us a bit about them on- and off-ice means we get more connected with them as people. Analysing what we are seeing in the highlights shown after the routine. Explaining what the skater needs to take the lead, or qualify for the GP Final. It means you can understand better what is going on than if you had no commentary whatsoever. But, again, providing this type of service would probably be beyond the financial reach of smaller events. But, it is inexcusable for the ISU not to be providing it for the Senior GP's. Especially when they already do it for the Junior GP's.

That would add something new and attractive for the ISU and for new fans and it would be worth putting money into. I mean, if die-hard fans want to watch B events, they already know how to, so the ISU getting involved wouldn't provide anything of much worth or attract more viewers. And I actually I personally like streaming like the Nepela Trophy had, it's more interesting and closer to the real-life experience than the usual multi-camera edit from major competitions. (ISU should invest money into Bs that don't have video streaming yet, though.)

Having not been to a competition, I have often wondered how much you can actually see from the stands. Can you actually tell from that distance if somebody has under-rotated? Or had an edge call? So, that single camera view we got at the Nepela was really informative. :agree:

And while I have the opportunity, can I just say that over the years, I have often wished that we had a camera like that for the Warm-up groups and for the Finale of the Gala. Because with so many skaters on the ice at the same time, there is so much happening. And if the camera is zoomed in on one particular skater, you could be missing out on seeing more interesting things that other skaters are doing at the same time. It is so frustrating when you are watching a skater doing very little, and you hear big cheers from the audience for something happening elsewhere on the ice.

This is getting way off topic, but I often wish for the same when I am watching TV talent shows like the "X Factor" or "Britain's Got Talent". When there are people spread out across the stage, we should stay on a static camera that shows the whole stage. Because otherwise, we are not getting the whole effect of the performance.

But, during skating routines, I do like having the multi-camera coverage that is zoomed-in on the skater.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Allikat]

Is there a reason that Challengers as well as all other international senior competitions are referred to as 'Senior Bs'? I have to wonder, because Challengers seem such a cut above other international competitions. I even think Challengers deserve higher points awarded towards world rankings than the other so-called Senior B events.

I do wish Challengers could be a bit more exclusive on entries since they need to be awarded more points, but I'm just a fan who enjoys watching. There must be lots I don't know about this.

 

[Harriet]

Is there a reason that Challenters as well as all other international senior competitions are referred to as 'Senior Bs'? I have to wonder, because Challengers seem such a cut above other international competitions. I even think Challengers deserve higher points awarded towards world rankings than the other so-called Senior B events.

I do wish Challengers could be a bit more exclusive on entries since they need to be awarded more points, but I'm just a fan who enjoys watching. There must be lots I don't know about this.

I think it's because the GP is the 'Senior A' competition - i.e., where the highest performers go. Everything else is 'Senior B', but within that category the Challenger events are supposed to be for the skaters who are aiming to break into the 'Senior A' group, whereas the other events are aimed at the whole group. And I have to admit, I'd like to see some restrictions on who can enter Challengers, too: namely that anyone who's ever won a medal at GP level or higher is barred from entry unless they're returning to competition after an injury or other break that's taken them off competitive ice for a minimum of 2 years.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Is there a reason that Challengers as well as all other international senior competitions are referred to as 'Senior Bs'? I have to wonder, because Challengers seem such a cut above other international competitions. I even think Challengers deserve higher points awarded towards world rankings than the other so-called Senior B events.

I do wish Challengers could be a bit more exclusive on entries since they need to be awarded more points, but I'm just a fan who enjoys watching. There must be lots I don't know about this.

I think it's because the GP is the 'Senior A' competition - i.e., where the highest performers go. Everything else is 'Senior B', but within that category the Challenger events are supposed to be for the skaters who are aiming to break into the 'Senior A' group, whereas the other events are aimed at the whole group. And I have to admit, I'd like to see some restrictions on who can enter Challengers, too: namely that anyone who's ever won a medal at GP level or higher is barred from entry unless they're returning to competition after an injury or other break that's taken them off competitive ice for a minimum of 2 years.

Yes, the Senior B's are so called because the GP's are the "A" tour. But the creation of the Challenger Series a few years ago complicated the terminology.

I have problems with the term "Senior B" too. But my problem with isn't with the "B" part. It is with the "Senior" part. Because most of them have competitions for all levels, not just Senior level. And it sounds like a contradiction to talk about a Junior competition at a Senior B.

See what I mean?

Anyway, I don't agree with the idea of restricting people from entering Senior B's. The way I look at it, there are restrictions / requirements on who can enter the Senior GP's and the Majors, so the Senior B's should be open competitions.

Look at it this way. Russia has a very deep field of Ladies skaters. And with great young skaters coming through every year, there are not enough Senior GP slots to go around all the skaters who are still competing that have previously won medals. So, if they are not allowed compete in Senior B's, where on Earth are they supposed to compete internationally so that they can get the minimum TES's that they need to try to reclaim their position in the "main" team?!

Take for example Elena Radionova. She won a medal at EVERY Senior GP she competed in except for one: the 2017 Cup Of Russia, when she was 4[SUP]th[/SUP]. But, she didn't get a Senior GP slot this season. So, under your proposals, she wouldn't have the opportunity to compete internationally.

That would be madness.

And what about Pairs Skaters or Ice Dancers that have previously won medals, but now have a new partner and are trying to establish themselves?

No, better to leave all the Senior B's as open competitions, and only have restrictions / requirements in the Senior GP's and the Majors.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Harriet]

what about Pairs Skaters or Ice Dancers that have previously won medals, but now have a new partner and are trying to establish themselves?

Since we've seen brand-new teams go straight into GP eligibility on the strength of one partner's scores with a previous partner, including this year, I don't see how that's a problem. A pairs skater/dancer who's won a medal on the GP already will have the scores needed to get their new partner access too.

 

[ice coverage]

Is there a reason that Challengers as well as all other international senior competitions are referred to as 'Senior Bs'? ...

I never have seen an official ISU definition for Senior Bs, and I believe it has somewhat different meanings to different people.
I myself do not consider Challengers to be Senior Bs. YMMV.

---

... And it sounds like a contradiction to talk about a Junior competition at a Senior B. …

AFAIK, the term Junior Bs is commonly used to refer to junior international competitions that are not part of the JGP series -- so juniors are competing at Junior Bs, not Senior Bs. No contradiction.

For example: For juniors who compete at Bavarian Open, it is a Junior B. For seniors who compete at Bavarian Open, it is a Senior B.
Although again, I never have seen an official ISU definition for either Senior Bs or Junior Bs.

(Similarly: In the U.S., people sometimes have reason to speak of "junior nationals" -- although junior nationals and senior nationals are part of the same larger event. Both take place in the same location during the same week.)

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

AFAIK, the term Junior Bs is commonly used to refer to junior international competitions that are not part of the JGP series -- so juniors are competing at Junior Bs, not Senior Bs. No contradiction.

For example: For juniors who compete at Bavarian Open, it is a Junior B. For seniors who compete at Bavarian Open, it is a Senior B.
Although again, I never have seen an official ISU definition for either Senior Bs or Junior Bs.

(Similarly: In the U.S., people sometimes have reason to speak of "junior nationals" -- although junior nationals and senior nationals are part of the same larger event. Both take place in the same location during the same week.)

Interesting. Although I've heard the term "Junior Nationals" (and "Novice Nationals", for that matter) being used lots of times, I've never heard the term "Junior B" (or "Novice B") being used before. It has always been "Senior B" that has been used to refer to "B" events.

That said, that is probably because most "B" events have Senior competitions included in the bill. There are very few "B" events where the highest level of competition included is Junior level or Novice level. So, it is just handier to refer to the whole event by a single term.

As far as I know, there are only 4 "B" events being held this season where the highest level being contested is Junior level. One of them was the Black Sea Ice Cup held a month ago, and I haven't seen any discussion about it anywhere. But the other three are coming up in the last couple of weeks of November / first couple of weeks of December:

• Skate Celje
• Santa Claus Cup
• GP Of Bratislava

So, I will make a point of keeping a close eye on how people refer to them.

Thank you for letting me know, and for arousing my curiosity.

CaroLiza_fan