Why are there not so many pairs teams left?

[lariko]

I think they did originally, but he got COVID and wasn't able to go.

That’s correct. He had Covid, so Semenenko was substituted. With how unfortunate Mozalev’s performance was at the Olympics, Kolyada was to go to the worlds instead of him.

 

[skylark]

Before, pairs used to be for single skaters who could jump a triple or two but couldn't get the full arsenal of jumps. So it was an "easy" switch in search of more success.

Now it seems, pairs is even more difficult than singles given the required level of difficulty in all their elements.

Exactly. And those levels of difficulty are reached at the expense of classic pairs qualities: beautiful lines, unison, synchronicity of movement and of intent, emotion, connection, choreography. Two skating as one. These are some of what many have said they miss in Knierim/Frazier -- some sense of being more than their fabulous elements. And also what many miss in Mishina/Galliamov and want to see developed more. The way M/G talk, though, to me it sounds like their focus going forward is developing even more technical tricks, and who can blame them; they know there are so many pairs trying to overtake them.

And the judging system, which rewards difficulty more than the other qualities that used to be the hallmark of pairs, makes it almost inevitable that difficulty is the pathway by which many pairs try to advance.

Not entirely inevitable, though. Happily. Case in point: Cain-Gribble/Leduc, who have always, from the beginning of their partnership, focused on synchronicity, artistry, and choreography. And many other very watchable pairs who haven't (yet) reached the top levels, such as Ziegler/Kiefer, who've now retired but who gave pleasure to so many with their pairs skating over many years. I would also say that James/Radford have made some of those elusive qualities their priority. Going a different direction than with their previous partners.

 

[labgoat]

Now that all the top dance couples are retiring and Russia isn't competing maybe C/B will be the best. But looking at recent Olympics/worlds it was always D/H vs Russia for top sports, with Z/D up there and a few other teams. I wouldn't say US dominated at all.
With men Nathan has been up there, Vincent sometimes, and Jason has been solid top 10 without challenging for medal. Nathan has won everything other than 1 GP event, so you can say he dominated - but I wouldn't say US Men in general are dominating. (Even if there are some rising stars)

Is D/H supposed to be Hubbell/Donohue? Who is Z/D? I wouldn't count out Guignard/ Fabbri, Gilles/Poirier, Fear & Gibson, Fournier-Beaudry/Sorensen, Reed/Ambrulicius.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Is D/H supposed to be Hubbell/Donohue? Who is Z/D? I wouldn't count out Guignard/ Fabbri, Gilles/Poirier, Fear & Gibson, Fournier-Beaudry/Sorensen, Reed/Ambrulicius.

Sorry looking over that post I have absolutely no idea what I was saying, but either I had a brain fart or was trying to say something completely different.

I think what I was trying to say was recently (since probably 2018) it seems to have been Papadakis/Cizeron at most events vs Russians, and then sometimes Hubbel/Donehue being up there. However I cannot confirm this was the case. Definitely a bad mistype though.

Of course, even then I was forgetting about important dance teams sometimes (and Russians not always been up there, and canadian dance teams etc.

Anyways, the only thing I'll state is the US has not recently dominated ice dance by any stretch.

 

[gliese]

I believe what Meagan Duhamel has said about M/G doing the 3sal-eu-3sal is that it's a very difficult jump to do in unison.

I'm not a skater, but I believe that may be somewhat true of all the SBS jumps in pairs. You'll see, over and over, people saying that So-and-So did 3T as a single skater, so they don't understand why she or he has such trouble with the same jump in a pair. Or you'll see someone say, "so they shouldn't have trouble" doing it as part of a pair.

And Tara Lipinski has said that she can't even imagine doing a SBS jump, because timing your jump is an individual thing, and it depends on the particular performance. She couldn't imagine trying to do a jump that close to another skater, and at the exact same time.

All this is only to say that in theory, jumping in pairs may not sound so different from jumping in singles. But in actual competition, it apparently is.

Pairs women seem to like to fly. For me as a fan whose favorite discipline is pairs, that's part of my enjoyment too, the throws and lifts. Although I'm even more a true devotee of unison, matching lines, synchronicity, and "two skating as one."

I think the points system has made it much harder and more dangerous for pairs, because it rewards difficulty, and in my opinion, sacrifices some of the beauty.

Sandra Bezic has talked about that last, in her most recent guest appearance on TSL. Really worth a listen.

Personally I think the hardest jumps to synch are combos in general. Sal-eu-sal is just as hard as synching any other combo in my experience, but I always had lots of trouble being in synch no matter what so that could be part of it.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Personally I think the hardest jumps to synch are combos in general. Sal-eu-sal is just as hard as synching any other combo in my experience, but I always had lots of trouble being in synch no matter what so that could be part of it.

I actually think it could be easier, as if the first jump gets out of sync you can reset on the second jump (hold landing of first jump for longer etc, as after the euler is completed you have reset to do the salchow whereas 3T combos are dependent on the timing of landing the first jump, and you have to go with the first jump rhythm even if you jump higher/lower than your partner and get to end of jump first, or your toe timing is different to your partner.

 

[gliese]

I actually think it could be easier, as if the first jump gets out of sync you can reset on the second jump (hold landing of first jump for longer etc, as after the euler is completed you have reset to do the salchow whereas 3T combos are dependent on the timing of landing the first jump, and you have to go with the first jump rhythm even if you jump higher/lower than your partner and get to end of jump first, or your toe timing is different to your partner.

Yeah I'm sure that could be the case for some, I just have a hard time synching everything. It didn't really matter what jump. Synching is hard.

 

[4everchan]

MTM2.0 used to do a 2aEU3s.... they were both quite competent on the combo individually but had to remove it as the timing was harder to do for them than a 3s-2t-2t

 

[moonvine]

I think many are doing the "woe is me" about pairs in the US. There are several pairs teams out there that will have to step up - but isn't that what a sport is all about? Maybe this is just the incentive they need. We may have a year or two or even a quad where the US doesn't do well but I still believe there are pairs teams can and will find success.

Only if they stay together longer than 5 minutes.

 

[skylark]

Only if they stay together longer than 5 minutes.

Over time, I'm thinking that it's not so much length of partnership as it is a team's ability to navigate the downs together as well as the ups.

Case in point: Deanna Stellato paired with Nate Bartholomay exactly the same month (May 2016) as Ashley Cain paired with Timothy Leduc.... both teams at the suggestion for a tryout by a USFS official. I know that the official explanation for Deanna & Nate splitting 3 years later was Nate's injury and surgery, but I'd noticed for more than a year that there was, shall we say, dis-harmony whenever it was perceived that Nate made a mistake.

On the other hand, Cain-Gribble and Leduc have always shown the attitude that a mistake is a team's mistake, and maybe even more importantly, recovery from a mistake is a team effort. The way forward is always their focus, and it's readily observable. I recently read a comment from their coach, Peter Cain, that Ashley and Tim are exemplary in this area; he said he's never seen a team like them in terms of seeing mistakes as "our mistake," and not as an individual flub-up.

I've always thought that what looks like a mistake on one-half of a pair's part, may actually be a shared responsibility, because of timing being so critical in throws and lifts. As for individual jumps --- well, synchronicity is hard, and it's delicate. It isn't just a matter of one person flubbing up.

@gliese said:

Yeah I'm sure that could be the case for some, I just have a hard time synching everything. It didn't really matter what jump. Synching is hard.

 

[skylark]

Synching is hard.

I'm thinking about something I remember from Katia Gordeeva's book "My Sergei." (I can't look it up because I gave my copy away.)

But I have a good memory. (Thanks, Dad.) She mentioned that when she and Sergei first teamed up, they had to "forget" how to skate and were required (by Zhuk?) to re-learn everything from basic stroking on up. This is despite what has been said, that the organization paired them in part because they already had similar styles. Marina Zueva wrote in "Skate Talk" that even when she first saw them, she'd never seen a pair so pretty together.

I wish that synchronicity between partners was valued more, and recognized as the difficult quality that it is.

A commentator who's a former skater observed about both of Ashley and Tim's skates this year that it's extremely difficult and demanding to skate such intricate choreography in such beautiful unison, from stroking, to extension of arms and legs, to precision in movement, and to the actual positions of their fingers. It's wonderful artistry, but also so much more.

I know I go on about Ashley/Tim, but I'm hopeful that their beautiful example of highlighting their choreography will influence pairs going forward.

 

[Arriba627]

I remember an interview with Marissa Castelli and Mervin Tran. After hearing it, I found it surprising that pairs were ever able to match up, let alone stay together. For which country would they skate? Who would be their coach(es)? Where would they live? What would be their home rink? Who would choreograph? And that's just the logistics part of it, let alone the skating.

 

[skylark]

It was in the back of my mind all day today that I wanted to say I think one reason Pairs Skating is alive and well is that some skaters just love it so much. For some, it's not a burden to share the glory, but it's part of the joy that cooperating with a partner can create something beautiful.

I love what Ryuichi Kihara said in this recent interview:

[Interviewer's Question]: The Chinese team [Sui/Han] had high technology such as quadruple rotation, and the Russian team had acting ability. Is there any attraction you want to show?

Kihara We want to simply deliver the joy of skating. The judge once said, "Pair competitions always have a painful face and slip, but you guys are always laughing, so I like it." I wasn't aware of the value of, but I thought it was wonderful. Pairs use their physical strength for each technique, so it's tough, and their seriousness is easy to see on their faces. That's why it seems that we are laughing freshly, and I don't want to erase this smile.
Miura : Many people say, "It seemed fun to slide with a smile, and I was impressed." I want to continue this smile.
Kihara Yes. Everyone likes skating, so I do it, but when it comes to competition, it's easy to forget that feeling. I want to continue to convey the pure feeling of "I'm doing it because it's fun" as a smile.

三浦璃来／木原龍一ペア｜2021-2022シーズン インタビュー｜キヤノン・ワールドフィギュアスケートウェブ

キヤノン・ワールドフィギュアスケートウェブで三浦璃来／木原龍一ペアのインタビューを公開中！世界選手権では日本勢最高位となる銀メダルを獲得した三浦璃来／木原龍一ペア。結成秘話や普段のお互いの姿などについて語ってくれました。ぜひご覧ください！

global.canon

 

[Arriba627]

^^^I am totally hooked on the riskiness and the beauty of pairs. I remember feeling that way all the way back to the Rodnina and Zaitsev days!

 

[SubRosa]

I wish that synchronicity between partners was valued more, and recognized as the difficult quality that it is.

Here is my pie-in-the-sky wish for pairs going forward: I would really like to see the multi-jump sequence, which Rodnina/partners and Gordeeva/Grinkov excelled at, be reintroduced. So a sequence of up to five jumps, singles and doubles only, single steps/mazurkas allowed to link jumps as needed. Maybe scored like the choreographic sequence, so difficulty is not the motivation. Rather, to demonstrate unison and musical expression, with the added benefit of getting teams to work on unison in the jump combo. Worth as many points as a 3T. Could either be done in place of the solo jump in the SP, or else move the jump combo to the SP and have a solo jump and jump sequence in the FP. Why? Because the jump combo has become sooooo awkward and ugly as it has increased in difficulty. It is usually my least favourite part of any FP. (The rare good ones are spectacular, maybe because they are so rare.) A jump sequence would be a valuable addition because it would force pairs to work on timing and unison in jumping. Maybe it is necessary to go back one step in order to move forward two.

Jump combos aside, I'm avidly looking forward to pair skating next season/quadrennium. I hate that war/Covid have brought us to this place, but will be cheering madly for teams that now have the opportunity to skate at a GP or at Worlds. More opportunity may encourage skaters who were thinking of quitting to hang in there awhile longer; it may encourage single skaters with Olympic aspirations to give pairs a try. I want to see what coaches like Massot, Szolkowy, Savchenko, Hotarek and James can do for pair skating in Europe. I hope Japan will encourage the development of new pairs, and look forward to seeing the Aussies improve. To reuse the cliche from my previous paragraph, maybe next season will seem like a step back, but will be the opening that allows new teams and new countries to come forward and shine.

 

[skylark]

Here is my pie-in-the-sky wish for pairs going forward: I would really like to see the multi-jump sequence, which Rodnina/partners and Gordeeva/Grinkov excelled at, be reintroduced. So a sequence of up to five jumps, singles and doubles only, single steps/mazurkas allowed to link jumps as needed. Maybe scored like the choreographic sequence, so difficulty is not the motivation. Rather, to demonstrate unison and musical expression, with the added benefit of getting teams to work on unison in the jump combo. Worth as many points as a 3T. Could either be done in place of the solo jump in the SP, or else move the jump combo to the SP and have a solo jump and jump sequence in the FP. Why? Because the jump combo has become sooooo awkward and ugly as it has increased in difficulty. It is usually my least favourite part of any FP. (The rare good ones are spectacular, maybe because they are so rare.) A jump sequence would be a valuable addition because it would force pairs to work on timing and unison in jumping. Maybe it is necessary to go back one step in order to move forward two.

Absolutely agree with everything. I re-watch G/G and long for pairs to be able, and rewarded, for such successions of less difficult jumps and moves. It would improve versatility and pleasure. So much.

Jump combos aside, I'm avidly looking forward to pair skating next season/quadrennium. I hate that war/Covid have brought us to this place, but will be cheering madly for teams that now have the opportunity to skate at a GP or at Worlds. More opportunity may encourage skaters who were thinking of quitting to hang in there awhile longer; it may encourage single skaters with Olympic aspirations to give pairs a try.

Again agreeing.

I want to see what coaches like Massot, Szolkowy, Savchenko, Hotarek and James can do for pair skating in Europe. I hope Japan will encourage the development of new pairs, and look forward to seeing the Aussies improve. To reuse the cliche from my previous paragraph, maybe next season will seem like a step back, but will be the opening that allows new teams and new countries to come forward and shine.

Who is "James" that you're referring to? I'm curious in a good way ... or maybe I'm just out of the loop on this one.

 

[Arriba627]

^^^Is that referring to Vanessa James??

 

[Kittosuni]

i think it mostly boils down to funding.

Without $$$ there isn't really incentives to do pairs. Singles is not even a cash cow unless you are on top of the podium.

There isn't a lot of events to earn price money. Even the top pairs team doesn't even get a lot of sponsorship money.

 

[mrrice]

As a former professional dancer, this is my personal opinion. Getting two highly talented people, who were likely trained by different coaches to make the adjustment to pairs is harder than people think.
By the time you're talented enough to be a champion, you have your own beliefs and training methods. Rituals that you've become accustomed to, and changing that for someone, especially in the beginning must be extremely difficult. I can imagine that if things don't gel VERY quickly, a talented singles skater would choose to go it alone. I'd love to interview the pairs skaters, and talk in depth about the beginning of their partnerships.

 

[SubRosa]

^^^Is that referring to Vanessa James??

Piegad & Strekalin mentioned on Instagram a few weeks ago that they would be working with Vanessa James at a summer training camp in the United States.



Not clear what that means for Vanessa and Eric for next season, but I could definitely see Vanessa transitioning into coaching as a career.