Yu-Na Kim's jumps discussion (merged threads)
- Thread starter fiercemao
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2006
Isn't it 'ninafan' on the ISU board? It behaves better there because it knows their posting regulations are more strict.
Yuna is commonly known as a 'text book jumper', the only female skate who can make a clear difference between 'flip' and 'lutz'.
But, she got 'e' on her flip jump during the competition in Cup of China 2008, ISU grand prix. There has been lots of discussions on whether Yuna is a flip or lip jumper since than.
So, what is a flip jump?
look at these pictures
http://cfs10.tistory.com/image/13/tistory/2008/11/08/00/16/49145bc7046a5
http://cfs10.tistory.com/image/14/tistory/2008/11/08/00/16/49145bd0d191c
These are the standard curves for flip jump.
As you can see, there are two ways to turn; 3-turn, and mohawk turn.
Unlike mohawk turn, when you are 3-turning, your edge becomes almost flat which makes it really hard to tell if the inside of edge is touching the ice by bare eyes.
Examples of flip jumpers with 3-trun are Alexei Yagudin, Patrick Chan, Jeremy Abbott, and Yuna Kim.
Alexei Yagudin, 2002 Salt Lake City LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFHvSWmY0c
Flip come out around 3:50
Patrick Chan, 2008 Canadian Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2jXafZZws
Flip around 1:12
Jeremy Aboott, 2008 World Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOJflJJHiYA
Flip around 1:40
Jefferey Buttle, 2008 World Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T2E94-w4UE
Flip around 1:19
AND
Yuna Kim's flip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JgVIyOWgTU
Flip around 00:58
She performs her triple flip exactly same as others, but she gets a 'wrong edge'??? while others get plus points???
Also, look at this picture
http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/29/tistory/2008/11/08/00/42/49146202b9505
on the ice, you can clearly see the inside curve line
http://cfs14.tistory.com/image/36/tistory/2008/11/08/00/44/49146260b1917
this is the picture of yuna's triple flip during danse macabre
Even though the 'real' flip jump requires INSIDE CURVE ONLY after the turn, this kind of curves are created by some skaters like Mao Asada.
http://cfs10.tistory.com/image/28/tistory/2008/11/08/00/16/49145bda3828a
After the turn, the skater comes in with inside edge, turns to outside edge creating outside curve, and than turns to deep inside edge before jump.
ISU accepts this kind of jump as a flip because the skater eventually jumps with inside edge, but this actually is NOT the right flip jump.
look at Mao Asada's flip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsp81rzUk98
after turn, she changes to OUTSIDE edge, and THAN changes to inside edge before the jump. This creates bent curve, which is not supposed to happen during flip.
Mao's kind of jump is performed when flutz jumpers try to fix their flutz and the body remembers the movement when the skater is trying to fix his/her jumps.
So, Mao is not really doing the RIGHT jump, it's just the ISU and judges are ACCEPTING her jump as a flip because she is jumping with her inside edge anyways.
This is the picture of curves of lip
http://cfs10.tistory.com/image/4/tistory/2008/11/08/00/16/49145be3d5691
Yuna's curve never goes towards outside because she never actually uses her outside edge.
(Somebody asked me how come her ankle looks outwards if she is skating with inside edge. Look here
http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/31/tistory/2008/11/07/13/04/4913be3657cc3
She is doing her spiral movement. If you look at her skate, her inside blade is touching the ice. But, her ankle is actually NATURALLY bent a little outwards. This is why when she is doing her flip, it looks like her ankle is outwards when her blade is almost flat with slight inside edge.)
Look at this picture
http://pds6.egloos.com/pds/200801/04/54/e0070254_477d7f080d147.jpg
When you are toe-picking during flip, the right foot does not go across the left foot. During the flip jump, Yuna NEVER crosses her right foot and left foot.
Also, when you only look at Yuna's skate, you can clearly tell if she is doing flip or lutz because her curves are so obvious. But, when you look at Mao's skate during her jumps, you can't really tell if she is doing flip or lutz because her curves make same lines.
Yuna is not a lip jumper.
She is a textbook flip jumper.
That 'wrong edge' judgment was not right at all.
But, she got 'e' on her flip jump during the competition in Cup of China 2008, ISU grand prix. There has been lots of discussions on whether Yuna is a flip or lip jumper since than.
So, what is a flip jump?
look at these pictures
http://cfs10.tistory.com/image/13/tistory/2008/11/08/00/16/49145bc7046a5
http://cfs10.tistory.com/image/14/tistory/2008/11/08/00/16/49145bd0d191c
These are the standard curves for flip jump.
As you can see, there are two ways to turn; 3-turn, and mohawk turn.
Unlike mohawk turn, when you are 3-turning, your edge becomes almost flat which makes it really hard to tell if the inside of edge is touching the ice by bare eyes.
Examples of flip jumpers with 3-trun are Alexei Yagudin, Patrick Chan, Jeremy Abbott, and Yuna Kim.
Alexei Yagudin, 2002 Salt Lake City LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFHvSWmY0c
Flip come out around 3:50
Patrick Chan, 2008 Canadian Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2jXafZZws
Flip around 1:12
Jeremy Aboott, 2008 World Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOJflJJHiYA
Flip around 1:40
Jefferey Buttle, 2008 World Championships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T2E94-w4UE
Flip around 1:19
AND
Yuna Kim's flip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JgVIyOWgTU
Flip around 00:58
She performs her triple flip exactly same as others, but she gets a 'wrong edge'??? while others get plus points???
Also, look at this picture
http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/29/tistory/2008/11/08/00/42/49146202b9505
on the ice, you can clearly see the inside curve line
http://cfs14.tistory.com/image/36/tistory/2008/11/08/00/44/49146260b1917
this is the picture of yuna's triple flip during danse macabre
Even though the 'real' flip jump requires INSIDE CURVE ONLY after the turn, this kind of curves are created by some skaters like Mao Asada.
http://cfs10.tistory.com/image/28/tistory/2008/11/08/00/16/49145bda3828a
After the turn, the skater comes in with inside edge, turns to outside edge creating outside curve, and than turns to deep inside edge before jump.
ISU accepts this kind of jump as a flip because the skater eventually jumps with inside edge, but this actually is NOT the right flip jump.
look at Mao Asada's flip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsp81rzUk98
after turn, she changes to OUTSIDE edge, and THAN changes to inside edge before the jump. This creates bent curve, which is not supposed to happen during flip.
Mao's kind of jump is performed when flutz jumpers try to fix their flutz and the body remembers the movement when the skater is trying to fix his/her jumps.
So, Mao is not really doing the RIGHT jump, it's just the ISU and judges are ACCEPTING her jump as a flip because she is jumping with her inside edge anyways.
This is the picture of curves of lip
http://cfs10.tistory.com/image/4/tistory/2008/11/08/00/16/49145be3d5691
Yuna's curve never goes towards outside because she never actually uses her outside edge.
(Somebody asked me how come her ankle looks outwards if she is skating with inside edge. Look here
http://cfs13.tistory.com/image/31/tistory/2008/11/07/13/04/4913be3657cc3
She is doing her spiral movement. If you look at her skate, her inside blade is touching the ice. But, her ankle is actually NATURALLY bent a little outwards. This is why when she is doing her flip, it looks like her ankle is outwards when her blade is almost flat with slight inside edge.)
Look at this picture
http://pds6.egloos.com/pds/200801/04/54/e0070254_477d7f080d147.jpg
When you are toe-picking during flip, the right foot does not go across the left foot. During the flip jump, Yuna NEVER crosses her right foot and left foot.
Also, when you only look at Yuna's skate, you can clearly tell if she is doing flip or lutz because her curves are so obvious. But, when you look at Mao's skate during her jumps, you can't really tell if she is doing flip or lutz because her curves make same lines.
Yuna is not a lip jumper.
She is a textbook flip jumper.
That 'wrong edge' judgment was not right at all.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2007
Wow, fiercemao is on a mission. You started an exact same thread on FSU? :sheesh:
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
2008 Coc technical panel ;;;;;;;;
Same technical panel makes different results--
Yuna Kim -- 'e'Mark
Jeremy--- FLIP after just one day----
http://gall.dcinside.com/list.php?id=figureskating&no=424102&page=1
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
Absolutly not... This is Technical issue.
why should this be going in the yuna/mao bots?
i thought this should come to the edge thread since it's about yuna's flip, not mao's flip vs yuna's flip. (i do talk about mao, but i talk about others also. mao was just one of the examples i used to compare yuna's flip.)
I agree that Mao shouldn't be brought into the subject of if Yu-na lips or not. But i know a lot of people are really sick of the subject of Yu-na's jumps and want it one thread.
i brought in mao because...
some people think that jumping like Mao is the correct way to jump a flip, and Yuna's way is not correct, but this is not true. Yuna's way to flip is CORRECT, it is textbook clean. Mao's flip is accepted as a correct flip since she jumps with her inside edge at the end, but it's technically not so right because she uses outside edge right after the turn and THAN changes to inside.
I just wanted to tell the guys who think to jump flip like mao is the only way to jump the correct flip that her method is actually not a TEXTBOOK jump, and there are other ways to jump a flip. (and I explained that there are other ways to jump like yuna by showing yagudin and etc's videos)
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Country
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LOL.
Well, many skating fans may be confused. So, it's good to clear things up and get the facts straight.
And, seeing as how that poster has yet to respond, maybe they've actually learned something. :agree:
Actually Hedwig over at FSU and maybe here too said that according to the rules the judges look at the position of the body before they start the jump, and the position of the body when they land the jump to decide if the jump is underrotated. So it's , it's the position of her BODY that they are looking for. The Eurosport people felt that Yu-na was all the way around (just barely) on the lutz, but who knows.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
At least I don't go on forever looking for pictures, photoshoping them, editing videos, and finding every other detail that I can because my favourite skater of the motherland got an edge call in ONE competition, while many others have all been suspicious of the questionable edge for a while, and I NEED to prove them ALL WRONG.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2007
Thanks for the clarification! I never knew that much detail about the flip.
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