Olympics/World Championships Skating Requirements | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Olympics/World Championships Skating Requirements

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I am not sure what to think about all the info you just posted. I did NOT read Sonia's remarks about limiting countries to only three skaters. I did read this remark from her that you included:

" And at least 30% of these skaters would not even make it to the novice event in the US."

Is that statement true? If it is then what what was said earlier by gkelly about only 6 or 7 skaters not meeting senior level requirements would not be true.
I say that respectfully and don't know what to believe. I suspect the real figure is somewhere between what gkelly and Sonia have stated.

I think we have to be more specific about what we mean by "meeting senior level requirements" or "make it to the novice event in the US."

The senior ladies' short program currently requires a double axel and at least two different triple jumps. So we could say that those jumps, including the two easiest triples, are requirements for competing at the senior level.

However, it is possible for any skater who has good double axel and triple jumps to miss one or more of those jumps elements on any given occasion. It is even possible to miss one of those elements and still place well if the other jumps and spins and the basic skating are of high quality.

A skater who cannot successfully complete double axel and one or two triples on a regular basis will not place well in ISU championships or Grand Prix-level events but if the rest of the skating is good she may be able to place higher than skaters who do have those jumps on the occasions when the usually better jumpers have a bad jump day.

Different countries' skating federations have different means of determining who qualifies to skate at the senior level within that country -- skating tests, competition results at lower levels, age limits, or some combination of the above.

Within the US, passing the senior moves in the field test (skating skills) and senior freestyle test (which includes some required elements with the hardest required jump being double lutz) qualifies a skater to enter senior-level events.

There are over a hundred senior ladies competing in the US in any given year. Probably a majority do not have consistent, fully rotated double axels and triples, and so they are unable to skate a clean short program and can only do a clean freeskate by limiting their jump content to single axels and double jumps. Others are capable of jump content up to two, three, four, or five different triple jumps but are inconsistent with those jumps. Of the above, some struggled to meet the moves in the field test standard and some have world-class skating skills but struggle only with jumps, and everywhere in between.

And a smaller minority but still sizable compared to most other countries have several consistent triple jumps *and* strong skating skills *and* strong non-jump elements and can place well in international competition.

Some other countries may require successful triple jumps before certifying a skater as senior level.

The ISU only requires the skater to have turned 15 by the previous July 1 to be eligible to enter a senior international competition.

Entry in the Grand Prix competitions requires invitation based on prior international results.

Otherwise, it's up to each federation to determine what level of skating, including but not limited to jump content, they require from a skater before sending her to a senior "B" international or to the ISU senior championships (European Championship, Four Continents Championship, World Championship). Some federations are willing to send out skaters who would struggle to pass the US senior tests much less skate a clean SP or earn component scores above, say, 5.00; others expect the capability to contend with at least the second-tier world-class skaters before sending a skater to international competition at all.

So how do you determine whether a skater is "senior" or "not good enough for senior"? There isn't a firm dividing line that's consistent across federations or internationally established by the ISU.

* * * * *

There are a couple hundred skaters in the US who compete at novice level each year. The highest jump requirements on the US novice freestyle test are double loop and double-double combination. The highest jump requirements in the novice short program are single axel, solo double jump, and double-double combination, so any skater who has passed the novice test in the US is capable of skating a legal novice short program. The highest jump content allowed in the novice SP is double axel, solo triple jump, and triple-double combination. So the successful novices in competitions across the US tend to have at least double axel and/or one triple jump.

The way the US qualifying system works, only 12 novice ladies qualify to compete at Nationals -- well under 10% of all US novices. These top novices tend to have double axels and usually one or more triples, or at least strong consistent doubles, and component scores in the 4s.

So I think it is fair to say that many of the skaters who finished in the bottom ranks of the ladies' short program at Worlds would not qualify for the US national championships at the novice level. However, they would have no problem passing the US novice tests, even the US senior tests, and could place in the upper middle ranks of US novice or junior competition at the regional level.

In fact, some of them did, before deciding to represent a different country.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think Greece and India should do what China did. Build a team if you want to have skaters at the Olympics.

Here is what China did. (Again, forgive me if I am remembering some of the dates wrong.)

In 1979 China petitioned to join the ISU. They were accepted as a member. As a member of the ISU they were allowed to send a skater to the 1980 World Championships in Dortmund.

The only skaters they had to send were the pairs team of Luan and Yao. Luan and Yao had taught themselves to skate by watching newsreels and still photographs of famous pairs skaters. They finished last at Worlds, with the audience and other skaters openly laughing at their efforts. They were especially upbraided by world and Olympic champion Irina Rodnina, who thought it a disgrace that such an untalented pair shoud be allowed to compete.

The next year, China was still a member of the ISU, they were still entitled to send a representative to Worlds, and Luan and Yao were still their best skaters. They were a little better than before because of the previous year's experience, but finished last again

In 1982, same thing. Last place once more for the Chinese skaters.

But the Chinese Skating Federation kept at it, kept training skaters, and kept sending them to the World Championships. Yao Bin, instead of being discouraged, built on his international experience to become the most successful pairs coach ever (well, maybe Tarasova...OK, maybe Moskvina,,, :) ). After twenty years of developing their skating programs, and sending their best off to the World Championships each year, they produced Shen and Zhao, Zhang and Zhang, and Pang and Tong.

And it all began when Bin Yao and his partner took their first baby steps onto the ice at the World Championships.

I am not saying that this is the only way. But this is the way China did it. :)
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
still doesn't explain why either Fumie or Yukari will be watching at home as a skater from Mongolia or India attempts to land their first ever successful double axle.

That won't happen at the Olympics. Unlike ISU championships, the Olympics have a limit on the total number of skaters that can be entered, so not every country is guaranteed a spot. They have to earn spots based on their skaters' results at Worlds and at a second-chance qualifying competition. A federation whose best skater has never landed a clean double axel in competition is not going to earn an Olympic spot.


It might happen at Worlds or Four Continents.

On the other hand, both Fumie and Yukari can earn Grand Prix invitations year after year.

The Mongolian or Indian skater will be lucky to compete in the SP at 4Cs and/or Worlds and maybe a senior B event, depending how generous their federation wants to be about sending them places.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I dont think it is boring the B skaters anyway.And people can always watch the last 2 groups for "not boring" moments


That is a good point because we can all enjoy different aspects of the different events at the Olympics. I always laugh about the curling - and then find myself watching some of it. It is actually very relaxing. Some do find it boring though. Just like some find seeing mediocre skaters competing at the Olympics boring.
But I feel bad for some of the great and dedicated skaters who have trained so long and hard and made such sacrifices to be left out when their abilty says they should be there.
I wonder what the 4th place lady skater from Japan or the 3rd place lady skater from USA would say if you asked them how they feel about watching some of very under qualified skaters at the Olympics. Do you think they enjoy it?
Johnny has many fans and is certainly one of the 20 best skaters in the World. Some would say he is better than that. Yet he might be home watching on TV a skater who he could beat on the worst day of his life skating in Vancouver.
I am just saying I think there is a certain unfairness to all of this.
But I guess it doean't make such a difference how I feel. Maybe you should send Johnny an email if he doesn't make the USA team. Ask him how much he enjoys seeing B skaters competing while he is home. Then I hope you will share the answer here. But that won't be necessary because we already know how bad he will feel. It will be worse than he felt after missing Worlds this year.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Janet does it matter about b skaters at the very end?:pFrom what I ve heard from competitions broadcast over there they dont air the first groups "b skaters"anyway:laugh::laugh::laugh:
(joke for a lighter note, dont hunt me down..:))
maybe i change my mind in all this If plushy comes 3rd in RN and doesnt qualify for Olys :unsure:
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Janet does it matter about b skaters at the very end?:pFrom what I ve heard from competitions broadcast over there they dont air the first groups "b skaters"anyway:laugh::laugh::laugh:
(joke for a lighter note, dont hunt me down..:))
maybe i change my mind in all this If plushy comes 3rd in RN and doesnt qualify for Olys :unsure:

Please - lighten up :biggrin:
I appreciate your posts and those from mm and gkelly. I know I am staging a losing debate here - but I hope you saw from my last message that it is not so important to me. I think it is important and somewhat unfair to some very great skaters that wont be there. That said, if you are interested in this read what mm and gkelly say. They know alot about all of this.
I am just stubborn and a romantic at heart who likes to see things differently at times.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
There always be great skaters ,apart from the 30 ones, who wont be there, no matter how many countries participate..
I think I m the romantic one who likes the colourful Olys flags and waits to see a greek skater doing something and an ice rink of decent dimensions in greece, instead of the Merry Christmas ones. :laugh:
This is the wish of our greek "dick button" by the way who says it at the end of each broadcast, my mum says he is been saying it since the 1970s, poor man, he still hopes.:rolleye:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
:
This is the wish of our greek "dick button" by the way who says it at the end of each broadcast, my mum says he is been saying it since the 1970s, poor man, he still hopes.:rolleye:

I have heard of this man. I believe his name is Dikos Buttonopolis ;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Johnny has many fans and is certainly one of the 20 best skaters in the World. Some would say he is better than that. Yet he might be home watching on TV a skater who he could beat on the worst day of his life skating in Vancouver...

Maybe you should send Johnny an email if he doesn't make the USA team. Ask him how much he enjoys seeing B skaters competing while he is home.

I would be very surprised indeed if Johnny were to feel bad that some obscure skater from Estonia got to go to the Olympics.

I think Johnny might feel sad and despondent that he didn't skate his best at U.S. Nationals and did not make the team.

I think he might be mad as hell that he let Brandon Mroz or Steven Carrierre or Adam Rippon -- skaters Johnny knows he is better than -- sneak up on him and steal his spot away.

I think he might say, who crowned Evan Lysacek as skate god, anyway -- I hope he falls on his butt.

He might say, I was robbed, the USFSA is out to get me after all.

There are lots of things he might feel bad about. But in all seriousness, I don't think the skater from Estonia is one of them.

Just my opinion.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
No mm, johnny will feel bad for real if he doesnt qualify in Olys, because basically I will kick his butt!!!(add kicking emoticon here):biggrin:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I
There are lots of things he might feel bad about. But in all seriousness, I don't think the skater from Estonia is one of them.

Just my opinion.

Are you kidding me? Your last post sounds like Keith Ohlberman wrote it. ( I like Keith so that is not a diss, just an observation).
Johnny is pretty much on record saying he has felt jealous over skating results.He had stated more than once publicly that he dislikes certain skaters and that he is resentful of their success. I hardly think it is much of a stretch to think he might feel resentful over seeing a partucularly weak performance from a B skater at Vancouver. I think it kind of odd that you would think otherwise.
And who could blame Johnny?. You are not considering just how much fame and fortune could slip through Johnny's fingers should he not make it to Vancouver. Skating after the Olympics as a Pro his fees and appearance opportunties wil be based to an extent on what happens next February.. He knows this may his last chance to get to a level that has eluded him for most of his career. why in the world wouldn't he feel some resentment, anger, unhappiness, all of these and several more emotions?
With all due respect, seniorita would be the least of his worries and concerns ;)
 
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seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
!!
Because if you didnt qualify in top 3 in your nationals it is not the fault of the Estonia guy, who actually did according to the rules.
I think it is not healthy thoughts for a top level athlete to feel that way for the less capable/talented or whatever. And he wouldnt be top if he thought that way, it is counter productive. If he wants to be jealous he should look up and have a goal.
This conversation is all speculation, Johnny will qualify, i have a crystal ball.:p
is there an estonian male skater by the way?

EDIT: If i kicked your butt you would know that he should be worried :unsure: :laugh:
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
!!
Because if you didnt qualify in top 3 in your nationals it is not the fault of the Estonia guy, who actually did according to the rules.
I think it is not healthy thoughts for an athlete to feel that way for the less capable. If he wants to be jealous he should look up and have a goal.
This conversation is all speculation, Johnny will qualify, i have a crystal ball.:p
is there an estonian male skater by the way?

You are right but I was not speculating about Johnny. I was repeating things he has said. That is not speculation. That is just the way it is. :yes:
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
No, you said he feels anger, resentful for the successful ones. Well that I said also. If he can drive this jealousy or any other feeling of that kind in favor of him to improve, it can actually be a good thing and could work.
Feeling resentful for the estonia guy gives him nothing but emotional wear and disorientation of his being as an athlete.
poor estonia guy, he is twisting in his sleep tonight
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
I have come to believe that the Olympics is about different nationalities comming together in human brotherhood for peaceful competition of their representative to athletes. That is in theory not what it actually is though.Leave the olympics alone.

But I always thought championships are suppose to be all the top athletes come together and duke it out to be king of the hill or queen. But it is impossible for that to happen at our World Championships becuase instead of inviting the top (I say about 33% of figure skating top atheletes stay at home.)atheletes we have a mini -olympics
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
No, you said he feels anger, resentful for the successful ones. Well that I said also. If he can drive this jealousy or any other feeling of that kind in favor of him to improve, it can actually be a good thing and could work.
Feeling resentful for the estonia guy gives him nothing but emotional wear and disorientation of his being as an athlete.
poor estonia guy, he is twisting in his sleep tonight

Johnny is real. We made up the estonia guy. You dont have to feel sorry for someone who does not exist :laugh:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I have come to believe that the Olympics is about different nationalities comming together in human brotherhood for peaceful competition of their representative to athletes. That is in theory not what it actually is though.Leave the olympics alone.

But I always thought championships are suppose to be all the top athletes come together and duke it out to be king of the hill or queen. But it is impossible for that to happen at our World Championships becuase instead of inviting the top (I say about 33% of figure skating top atheletes stay at home.)atheletes we have a mini -olympics

Well I will settle for what you suggest. If not at the Olympics, atleast they should have a skating competition somewhere with the all of the very best skaters.
That would be fine with me. But even that is prohibited by politics, money and an archaic, inward looking ISU more concerned with preserving the staus quo than bringing the sport into the 21st century. Unless one considers keeping judges scores secret a sign of progress.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
In any case dont you have to flap and pose to qualify for Olympics?:p
Voilà Johnny, this is your goal.:biggrin:
 

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Is it me or do figure skating has a lot more issues than other sports. I finacially in trouble. It corrupt politics and judging. The equipment hasn't advance hardly at all. The ranking system makes no sense. And there a world championship that leave top atheletes out of it. Secrete judging. Coaches that promote unhealthy diets. Is there any more?
 
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