Olympics/World Championships Skating Requirements

[janetfan]

Is it me or do figure skating has a lot more issues than other sports. I finacially in trouble. It corrupt politics and judging. The equipment hasn't advance hardly at all. The ranking system makes no sense. And there a world championship that leave top atheletes out of it. Secrete judging. Coaches that promote unhealthy diets. Is there any more?

(actually it funny and sad)
Many here think it is swell the way it is. I don't get it and think it could be much better. The ISU is so inward looking and still feels corrupt - and then they wonder where the millions and millions of dollars they used to get from Broadcast rights have gone.

 

[seniorita]

Is it me or do figure skating has a lot more issues than other sports.... Is there any more?

M
i'm lovin' it ​

 

[i love to skate]

Is it me or do figure skating has a lot more issues than other sports. I finacially in trouble. It corrupt politics and judging. The equipment hasn't advance hardly at all. The ranking system makes no sense. And there a world championship that leave top atheletes out of it. Secrete judging. Coaches that promote unhealthy diets. Is there any more?

I don't think skating has more problems than other sports. Doping, steriods, gambling, violence, legal problems, and recreational drugs are just some examples of problems other sports have.

If by equipment you mean skates and blades the technology is constantly evolving and has made great strides. I just got myself a new pair of Reidell 1500s and they are amazing. These new skates are leaps and bounds ahead of what I used to own...and my old skates were only four years old!

 

[Medusa]

Is it me or do figure skating has a lot more issues than other sports.

I sincerely doubt that. We are just more involved in it - emotionally. My other favourite sport, football (you call it soccer in the colonies) has probably as many issues as figure skating.

It has umpire scandals, doping (which is mostly a non-issue in skating), exploitation of players (especially from Africa and South America), discussion about slow-motion, corruption (huge scandal in Italy a few years ago, that had Juventus Turin in the second ligue for one year), private scandals of the players...

What about cycling? Nobody takes it seriously anymore, because everyone is apparently on drugs.

In Germany we have currently a huge scandal in equestrian sports, where two extremely successful athletes with numerous Olympic Gold medals admitted doping.

 

[gkelly]

Well I will settle for what you suggest. If not at the Olympics, atleast they should have a skating competition somewhere with the all of the very best skaters.

OK, let's say we're going to scrap the World Championship structure and replace it with a competition for all of the very best skaters in the world.

First thing we have to do is decide how many of these very best skaters should participate. For practical reasons, it's been decided that 24 skaters for the long program is a good maximum number for judging panels and audiences to maintain concentration. Maybe 30 for the short program with 6 skaters being cut before the long.

It would also be possible to go with a smaller number of participants -- only the very very best skaters. Or a somewhat larger number, at least for the SP. But the number of initial entries can't be infinite.

Second question would be how to determine who qualifies as very best in the world and therefore is eligible to enter this championship.

There may be 10-20 ladies and 10-20 men who are capable of contending for world medals, at least on a good day. So we want all of those skaters to participate?

Then there might be, say, 100 others per discipline around the world who even at their best no one would expect to come out on top of a world championship event but who could, on a good day, beat some of the potential medal contenders on a bad day. In the current context they might be dreaming of a top-10 or even top-24 Worlds finish, a respectable (midfield) finish at a Grand Prix event or continental championship, or a medal at a senior B international, but only on their good days could they achieve those goals.

That would already be too many skaters to judge in one competition, so there would need to be some means of qualifying in smaller groups.

And there might be another few hundred around the world who can meet their federations minimum requirements to be considered senior-level skaters but who even on their best day don't have the skills to finish in, say, the top half of a Euros or 4Cs field.

So how could these several hundred senior skaters worldwide be narrowed down to the very best 24 or 30?

I can think of three possibilities.

1) Make Worlds a multistage event lasting for at least a week and a half. Anyone can enter, although skaters or their federations would have to pay significant entry fees -- $1000 or more per skater. Maybe each fed would get one entry for free in the discipline of their choice. Skaters who qualify for the final get their entry fees refunded.

Hold qualifying rounds, probably lasting two days for the ladies and at least a full long day for the men. This could consist of short program, long program, or some other format that would replace the current short program in all skating competitions. We would probably have to go back to dividing the field into several approximately equal groups of no more than 24 per group and then taking the top X skaters from each group to end up with a final round of the appropriate size.

2) Make Europeans and Four Continents into open qualifier competitions. Anyone can enter those events, probably with with entry fees as above, there would be a day or so of qual rounds for each discipline at those events, and then the top 15? from each continental championship would be qualified for Worlds.

Or make the number of qualifiers from each continental group proportional to how that continental group's representative did at Worlds the previous year. Or use the total scores as cutoffs.

3) Forget about having any single event where all federations or half of all federations (European or non-European) can all gather at the same venue. Set up a super-Grand Prix series instead -- 8 or 12 or more full-sized events (24 or 30 entries) of equal weight, located around the world with half or fewer located in Europe. There might be some permanent host countries and other events would rotate to different locations each year.

All federations would be guaranteed at least one or two entries in this series. Beyond that, there would need to be a way of determining how federations might end up with 5 or 10 or 20 ladies, or men, in the series, and a way of determining which individual skaters can enter more than one of these events. There would also need to be a way of seeding the fields so that all the best skaters don't congregate at one of the events and leave another event with no strong contenders.

Qualifying for Worlds would be based on results in this series in some way.

Maybe points for placements in two events, similar to how skaters qualify for the current Grand Prix and Junior Grand Prix finals.

Maybe all medalists at these events would qualify, regardless of results in a second event.

Maybe something similar to the current world rankings.

Maybe the top 30 IJS scorers from across the series would qualify.


Or look at the curve of all scores from the series and draw a cutoff at a point where there's a clear gap between the last skater who falls above the line and the first who falls below it and that still leaves a manageable sized field. E.g., anywhere between 20 and 40 skaters would qualify depending on the point spreads in that year's series. That way you wouldn't have anyone just missing the cut by tenths of a point or less.

This could be done with the scores at the initial rounds at Worlds or at the continental events.

Or take the top X from each Worlds initial round or continental qualifier or super-Grand Prix qualifier, for approximately 24 total, plus anyone in what proved to be a higher scored event whose total was higher than someone who qualified from a group with weaker scores.

If the total number of qualifiers ends up being more than 24, then cuts would be made after the SP at Worlds.

* * * * *

Whichever method is chosen, a similar setup might be used for pairs and dance, although the numbers in those disciplines, esp. pairs, are enough smaller worldwide that you might end up more teams qualifying for Worlds than getting cut.

 

[janetfan]

I sincerely doubt that. We are just more involved in it - emotionally. My other favourite sport, football (you call it soccer in the colonies) has probably as many issues as figure skating.

Hello - Colonies?
There is the New World, The Third World, New Europe, Old Europe and more.
Which are you?

 

[Medusa]

Hello - Colonies?
There is the New World, The Third World, New Europe, Old Europe and more.
Which are you?

What kind of question is that? Old Europe of course. And damn proud of it.

 

[dorispulaski]

Well I will settle for what you suggest. If not at the Olympics, atleast they should have a skating competition somewhere with the all of the very best skaters.
That would be fine with me. But even that is prohibited by politics, money and an archaic, inward looking ISU more concerned with preserving the staus quo than bringing the sport into the 21st century. Unless one considers keeping judges scores secret a sign of progress.

Strictly speaking, that's what the GPF and JGPF are supposed to be. It has happened that more than 3 skaters/teams from a country are qualified for the grand prix or jr grand prix.

 

[janetfan]

What kind of question is that? Old Europe of course. And damn proud of it.

It was a question like any other. What kind of question did you think it was?
Remember, I am just a wild colonial boy lacking in gracious old world manners.

 

[janetfan]

Strictly speaking, that's what the GPF and JGPF are supposed to be. It has happened that more than 3 skaters/teams from a country are qualified for the grand prix or jr grand prix.

That is a good point which no one else mentioned. But strictly speaking - it doesn't quite turn out that way. Although with some adjustments the GP series has the potential.

 

[Mathman]

Are you kidding me?

Johnny is pretty much on record saying he has felt jealous over skating results.He had stated more than once publicly that he dislikes certain skaters and that he is resentful of their success. I hardly think it is much of a stretch to think he might feel resentful over seeing a partucularly weak performance from a B skater at Vancouver. I think it kind of odd that you would think otherwise.
And who could blame Johnny?. You are not considering just how much fame and fortune could slip through Johnny's fingers should he not make it to Vancouver.

I'm sorry, but I find this an utterly absurd take on human nature.

That B skater did not cause anything to slip through Johnny's fingers.

What do you think Caroline Zhang would say if you asked her, "Are you angry and resentful because Maria Papasotiriou got to skate at Worlds and you didn't?"

Her first response would be, "huh?" And her second response would be, "who?"

Now, if you asked her, are you angry and resentful that the judges at U.S. nationals underscored your performance, are you angry and resentful that the USFSA sent Alissa to Worlds instead of you, and Alissa didn't get three spots for the Olympics and you might have -- OK, now we're getting somewhere.

But I seriously doubt that Caroline is saying, oh that darn Maria! Look at all that fame and fortune she snatched from me!

Truth to tell, I doubt if Caroline has ever heard of Maria Papasotiriou.

 

[Tonichelle]

if there weren't a limit to the number a country could send we'd have a repeat of certain national championships in each division. yawn. let's save the fans a buttload of money and just do national championships and be done with it.

if those elitist American's can't win everything, what's the point of having the competition anyway, right? those poor little girls not all being able to go because they couldn't send three at worlds that could actually KEEP three spots. that's so not fair.

please, where's my baba and blankie. it's going to be "unfair" no matter how you slice it. seems to me this way - which has worked for how many decades - works for everyone equally. which the US ladies issue this year has proven. yeah, we have a lot of unbridled talent that can't put it all together for two programs in a major competition. seems to me we're no better than those horrible not worthy of competition smaller Federations barely getting an invite, much less a spot or two.

 

[janetfan]

Truth to tell, I doubt if Caroline has ever heard of Maria Papasotiriou.

I never heard of her either. Is she like this imaginary "estonian skater"?
I seriously doubt that any reaction that might - and probably would occur has to fit into these very narrow parameters you are using to illustrate a point.
Neither of us has any idea how a given skater would react. I used Johnny because he has actually talked about it in press conferences and in his blog.
So we know in his case there were some very strong emotions he expressed.
They were close enough for me to think he was not only very upset, shocked and bitter over missing out on Worlds, but to easily see how he could be sitting and watching a poor performance and think it was wrong for him not to be competing. You mentioned human nature and unfortuantely envy is a part of human nature.It is more rare not to have it than to have it. It would seem almost impossible for a skater not to feel envious in this situation. It is part of their make up to be ultra competitive and with that someties comes other things like envy and jealousy when things don't go their way. It is good old normal human nature.

As to Caroline I have no idea how she might feel or react. I suspect as she watched 35 to 40 skaters not as good as she is at Worlds last Spring many things went through her mind. Caroline may be young but she is a competitive athlete and at some point the whole "injustice of it all" most likely hit her. I would bet alot of money that at some point she thought, "I am better than so many of these skaters and this is happening in my home town. I wish I was out there too.
I won't speculate further but envy is part of human nature. She had to feel it and sense it at some some point. How could she not unless she isn't very competitive and just doesn't think much about circumstances. I doubt that she had in in for Alissa or Rachael since there may be a level of friendship. No, no, it would be that Maria skater she would want out of the competition and not a teamate. Johnny would see it totally differenty though as expressed in his own words.

 

[evangeline]

I never heard of her either. Is she like this imaginary "estonian skater"?
I seriously doubt that any reaction that might - and probably would occur has to fit into these very narrow parameters you are using to illustrate a point.
Neither of us has any idea how a given skater would react. I used Johnny because he has actually talked about it in press conferences and in his blog.
So we know in his case there were some very strong emotions he expressed.
They were close enough for me to think he was not only very upset, shocked and bitter over missing out on Worlds, but to easily see how he could be sitting and watching a poor performance and think it was wrong for him not to be competing. You mentioned human nature and unfortuantely envy is a part of human nature.It is more rare not to have it than to have it. It would seem almost impossible for a skater not to feel envious in this situation. It is part of their make up to be ultra competitive and with that someties comes other things like envy and jealousy when things don't go their way. It is good old normal human nature.

Personally, from reading Johnny's comments and journals, it seemed that he was more angry and frustrated at himself than some unknown skater from somewhere.

 

[i love to skate]

I
They were close enough for me to think he was not only very upset, shocked and bitter over missing out on Worlds, but to easily see how he could be sitting and watching a poor performance and think it was wrong for him not to be competing. You mentioned human nature and unfortuantely envy is a part of human nature.It is more rare not to have it than to have it. It would seem almost impossible for a skater not to feel envious in this situation. It is part of their make up to be ultra competitive and with that someties comes other things like envy and jealousy when things don't go their way. It is good old normal human nature.

Well he had poor skates at US Nationals which caused him to place 5th and therefore he did not earn his spot on the World team. The person he should really be upset with should be himself not some other skater who "took his place" (which is not what happened). This is sport...nothing is fair.

 

[janetfan]

if there weren't a limit to the number a country could send we'd have a repeat of certain national championships in each division. yawn. let's save the fans a buttload of money and just do national championships and be done with it.

if those elitist American's can't win everything, what's the point of having the competition anyway, right? those poor little girls not all being able to go because they couldn't send three at worlds that could actually KEEP three spots. that's so not fair.

please, where's my baba and blankie. it's going to be "unfair" no matter how you slice it. seems to me this way - which has worked for how many decades - works for everyone equally. which the US ladies issue this year has proven. yeah, we have a lot of unbridled talent that can't put it all together for two programs in a major competition. seems to me we're no better than those horrible not worthy of competition smaller Federations barely getting an invite, much less a spot or two.

All good points - but I am sure I mentioned a couple of veteran Japanese skaters who would probably deserve a place and who will be too old for the next Olympics. There was no mention of crying or blankets. Those are your words and feelings and not mine.
I was expressing a point - that it would be nice to see some of the great skaters who won't be part of the Olympics having a chance to skate there because they are terrific skaters and so much better than half the field.
"There is no crying in baseball" and there should be only a little crying in skating.

 

[Mathman]

I never heard of her either. Is she like this imaginary "estonian skater"? .)

She represented Greece at 2009 Worlds in Los Angeles. In the short program she did a nice double Axel, but unfortunately popped both her intended Lutz combo and her loop into singles. It must have been Caroline's dagger eyes boring into her back that made her stumble.

Maria did not qualify for the free skate and finished 47th overall, so Caroline got her revenge.

 

[Medusa]

It was a question like any other. What kind of question did you think it was?
Remember, I am just a wild colonial boy lacking in gracious old world manners.

Maybe a rethorical question, because I thought it might have been clear along the lines.
I thought we were rude Euros.

 

[janetfan]

Well he had poor skates at US Nationals which caused him to place 5th and therefore he did not earn his spot on the World team. The person he should really be upset with should be himself not some other skater who "took his place" (which is not what happened). This is sport...nothing is fair.

There can be a degree of fairness if a so called "World Championship" makes every effort to open the competition to the very best possible skaters. Like they do at Tennis Grand Slams. Who says that skating has to continue with such an outdated and unfair system that rewards medocrity and punishes excellence.
Why are so many here afraid to consider change. This is just a discussion. The system won't change. BTW, this sytem is very good for Joannie because it keeps several skaters with tthe potential to place above her out of the competition. What is wrong with having as many of the best skaters competing and not only two thirds of them competing for a championship? If you think I say this to give USA a better chance you totally miss my point.

 

[Mathman]

Strictly speaking, that's what the GPF and JGPF are supposed to be. It has happened that more than 3 skaters/teams from a country are qualified for the grand prix or jr grand prix.

That is a good point which no one else mentioned. But strictly speaking - it doesn't quite turn out that way.

It rarely turns out that way in seniors, but in the juniors it happens a lot.

2008 Junior Grand Priz Final: Out of eight places, in ladies 5 were from the U.S., and in pairs 5 were from Russia.

2007 Junior Grand Prix Final: 5 U.S. men, 5 U.S. ladies.

2006 JGPF: 5 U.S. men, 5 U.S. ladies, 5 U.S. pairs (! What happened?))

2005: U.S. pairs, 6 out of 8!

2004: 4 Japanese ladies. 5 U.S. pairs (the other three were Russian. It was a two-country contest.)

By the way, just for fun I ran down the ISU rankings list to see how many skaters (ladies) from each country would qualify if they just took the top twenty.

Japan 5
USA 3 (Rachael, Caroline and Ashley)
Finland 2
and one each from Italy, Korea, Canada, Russia, Switzerland, Hungary :yes:, Georgia, Sweden, Germany and Slovakia.