- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
Anyway, Kwan's 1998 olympic LP is one of the reasons why I love figureskating. Even now it's still breathtaking to watch.
Nah, no year is better than one that includes winning the Olympic Gold, the prize Kwan always wanted to win and the only reason she stayed in the sport so long. Do you seriously think Kwan wouldnt trade her 1996 to have Evan's 2006 Oly Gold included? And I never said Michelle's 1996 wasnt phenomenal and that she wasnt dominant in that season, other than the ridiculous standards you hold Lysacek and Yamaguchi to that you must go undefeated (Kwan did not) and you must win the big event decisively by a clear marging (which Kwan again did not). You claimed falsely she went undefeated and I pointed out that you were wrong.
This if she skated her best nonsense is meaningless. Kwan's biggest edge over her competitors was usually her consistency. Alot of her main rivals who could have beaten her over the years like Slutskaya, Cohen, Chen, Bobek, cracked under pressure often. Well Tara's biggest weapon was that she was even more consistent than Michelle, hence why she regularly beat her in important events at ages 14 and 15. Tara was clearly the top skater of 1997 since she beat Kwan in the 3 biggest events both were in together in a row- U.S Nationals, Grand Prix final, and Worlds. To deny otherwise is foolish. Kwan also lost the biggest events of the year in both 1998 and 1999. That is not dominating.
So the ridiculous Pro Am events which Cinquanta put in place just to get rid of professional skating altogether (and succeeded and now the sports popularity is going down the drain under his watch so backfired on him) which only lasted a year or two, where Kwan was mostly competing against eligible retired old ladies who couldnt even do all the triples is now more important than actual ISU events? And this isnt desperate/
As I mentioned already Slutskaya at her best would have won the 2000 and 2001 Worlds. Maria at her best would have also won the 2000 Worlds.
No that is not what you said, and you are still wrong. No 5.9s here either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eh_uYYfQ3w
Nearly everyone at the time said no way Joannie should have been that close to Mao in points in the end.
You are assuming no additional points at all in GOE and PCS without a fall which is frankly stupid, especialy the way the judges were scoring in Vancouver.
So you say Kwan was clean, then she wasnt clean because of the time violation (which is what I said all along anyway), and now again she was clean. Make up your mind please. :scowl:
[lots of talk about how Kwan didn't need the 3-3 because of the way the judges ended up scoring her]
She did not plan 6 triples. She planned 7. And had she not doubled the second triple lutz, which was essentialy a fluke as she was still regularly landing it, she would have ended up with 7. So stop with this 6 triple nonsense, that was never the plan.
The only time Cohen skated Swan Lake cleanly under the 6.0 system was at the post Worlds Cheesefest and she received 6.0s for presentation for it. At Nationals she had a bad fall and another two footed jump and still received a 6.0 for presentation (the rest all 5.8 or 5.9).
Kwan by that point didnt have any real edge on Sasha other than a big edge in jump consistency and superior basic skating skills. Sasha had superior spins, superior flexability and positions on spirals (despite this being Kwan's biggest trump card), excellent footwork in the mid 2000 years, and was just as musical and even more polished.
Again, Centennial On Ice was not a relevant competition to the season. Kwan WAS undefeated for the competitions that actually get listed for the season.
Also, the argument was not if Olympics is more important than Worlds. Of course it is. What we are talking about is who was more dominant. Sarah Hughes was not the most dominate skater in the 2 years leading up to the Olympics just because she won that event.
It's not meaningless at all. The way that people perceive you is very important. If you give the best performance of the season, that shows you are the best skater and the person to beat. Kwan gave the best performances of 1998 and 1999 and she only lost 1 competition each season (coming in 2nd, and one of those times many people felt she deserved Gold). She may have lost the biggest competitions of each season, but regardless she was still very dominant in a way that Lysacek was not. I never said Tara wasn't the more dominant skater of 1997 either.
A lot of them weren't more important than ISU events, but the big ones were definitely relevant, stressful competitions and Kwan delivered the goods time and again. Kwan's showing at 1999 Nationals was better than Butyrskaya's at Worlds as well.
She was by far the best skater of the season, despite underperforming at Worlds and having to settle for the Silver.
They wouldn't have deserved to. Kwan's performances at 2000 and 2001 Worlds were both better than anything Slutskaya or Butyrskaya have ever done.
Yes, that IS what I said. I do grant that you are correct about the specifics with regards to this competition, but my overall point remains - her marks were boosted solely for being "the chosen one". Getting a bunch of 5.8's for that performance is LOL.
Joannie wouldn't have been that close in points under this season's scoring system. Triple Axels weren't worth as much and Mao got a jump downgraded, which was FAR too overpenalized up until this season. When people talk about a performance their first instinct is to look at it in terms of what actually makes sense, not the arbitrary CoP rules.
No, I'm assuming a small boost in PCS as well. As for GOE, they rarely do the sbs Salchow well, so it's not illegitimate to assume they would probably break even. If Dube/Davison were consistent and great on their 3Sal, then they would be a more highly regarded team.
To get back to the original question (well, not the original question, but one that came up along the way ), would Michelle's 1998 LP have beaten Kristi's 1992 LP?
I don't think there is any serious question here. Michelle's performance was better. Kristi's hand down and doubled jump would take her out of the top spot without the need of any further analysis. Michelle's gave a near-perfect seven-triple performance whose only "flaw" was that perhaps she did not skate with quite the freedom that she had at U.S. nationals.
As for the second mark, Kristi's performance was fine, not her best, not "oooh and ahhh." It's not like Michelle had to compete against Kristi's Doop Doop or Bridge Over Troubled Waters. (Although, in that case, Michelle could pull out Fields of Gold and the 1998 world pro East of Eden.)
I never put much stock in comparisons between Dorothy and Kat or Kristi and Michelle, etc, because skating continues to evolve. If Yuna had skated her 2010 programs back in '98 the superiority of her jumps alone would have blown Michelle and Tara off the ice. IMO Tara's jumps are those of a small child compared to Yuna.
I wouldn't have it any other way and certainly hope the OGM winner in 2018 surpasses Yuna's 2010 performance.
I haven't read through the thread but would find a CoP analysis of Michelle vs Tara from Nagano of more interest.
Am sure it has already been done (to death perhaps ) but wonder if in today's CoP if Michelle would have won easily much in the manner Patrick just won SC. For me there was never much comparison in their SS, IN, and CH.
As much as I like Sandra's choreo the idea of a happy child beating a much more artistically mature performance never felt right.
I always would have placed Michelle first and although Lu-Lu was not at her best her skating was much more enjoyable for me than Tara's. I see "Butterfly Lovers" as one of the great 6.0 programs and rewatch it atleast once a year. I have re-watched Tara's Nagano programs maybe once and that was only for evaluation purposes and not for pleasure.
...and I'd never hear skating music in a minor key again.
The Centennial on Ice not a relevant competition to the season. Here are some of the fields that showed up at the Centennial On Ice that year:
Kwan did not go undefeated in the 95-96 season. Get over it. You are the first person who follows skating I have heard to ever even try and argue Kwan went undefeated in the 95-96 season including the worst of the Kwaniacs. And what is with this listed for the season nonsense. In your own words you praise Kwan for her dominance in non ISU events, and now you are discounting a loss by Kwan at a so called non listed event.
Michelle in 1998 skated very well and still lost the biggest competition of the season to Tara, a skater who had beaten her 3 times in major competitions in the previous year as well. I would not say she was perceived as dominant at that point. Maybe going into the Olympics she was, but after losing such a major title to Tara, a skater who had beaten her multiple times in recent memory, that would have changed again. Coming out of the 1998 February Olympics tdhe biggest event she had beaten Tara in since 1996 at that point was U.S Nationals (or Skate America). And at years end Tara had won the years biggest and 3rd biggest events- Olympics and the Grand Prix final and Kwan the years 2nd and 4th biggest events- Worlds and U.S Nationals. And despite this Kwan was still obviously dominant? No.
Kwan fell at Nationals in 1999. The rest of the skate was excellent, but she was never beating Maria's Worlds performance that year with a fall.
Slutskaya in her prime years was superior to Kwan technically, even with both at their best.
Michelle fell on a simple triple toe in the short program and was still placed 3rd over Nikidinov who skated cleanly. That was the real gift. Yes Angela was the most boring skater ever around that time but her technical elements were all very solid, so there was no justification to place her below Kwan with a fall in the short program especialy under inflated National scoring. I agree Kwan deserved to win the LP but if she were 4th in the SP Sasha would have won. E.M Swift wrote an article in Sports Illustrated criticizing the judging and the judges decision to give Kwan the title at the years U.S Championships as well. Anyway irregardless of my opinion many media and fans did complain about her win at those Championships. I do agree Sasha was overrated at the time. I would have actually placed Hughes 1st in the SP, 2nd in the LP, and given her title with Kwan being 4th (where she should have been for sure) in the SP.
Kwan had more World titles/medals, more National titles/medals, and more Grand Prix titles/medals than Lipsinki at the end of 1998. She beat Lipinski by a long way twice in the season and then barely lost to Lipinski once, at Olympics. She had more wins overall in the season than Lipinski. She was still considered the most artistic skater out there and she gave the best performances in both the SP and LP of 1998. Her presence over the sport and her achievements were more respected. Perhaps on paper her value after barely losing the Olympics was not as significant to you, but art extends beyond the superficial values you've assigned to them.
And yet Yamguchi with a near fall + doubled jump was on the same level as Kwan's 1998 Olympic performance, in your mind. Right.
I'm not going to debate about how Kwan's 1999 Nationals performance would have scored vs. Maria's 1999 Worlds performance, but I believe she would have deserved to beat Maria. A technically more difficult program + superior artistry = better than the difference of 1 fall.
I don't think anyone would deny that. And I completely understand that Kwan would have lost 2000 Worlds if Slutskaya skated her absolute best because of the momentum Slutskaya had. I would NOT agree with that result, though. Slutskaya was a 5.8 at best on the second mark, whereas Kwan was a 6.0.
I never put much stock in comparisons between Dorothy and Kat or Kristi and Michelle, etc, because skating continues to evolve. If Yuna had skated her 2010 programs back in '98 the superiority of her jumps alone would have blown Michelle and Tara off the ice. IMO Tara's jumps are those of a small child compared to Yuna.
I already explained that was all about the value of her triple lutz-triple toe which carried alot of extra credit, especialy in any other era with the triple axels extinct again. That is of course one of the very hardest triple-triples out there, far more valuable than say a triple toe-triple toe. Just look at all the extra value Tara is credited with for her triple loop-triple loop combination and is almost unbeatable with it even with tiny jumps, flutzing, not great non jump elements, and less than top notch maturity and style.