Grand Prix Season Preview: Canadian women rebuilding

[Violet Bliss]

Let's start with P J Kwong's blog:

Grand Prix Season Preview: Canadian women rebuilding

I quite agree with David Wilson, not just about Canadian, but recent Ladies in general in spite of some of most wonderful skaters ever:

"[Figure skating] has become so athletic with the jumps that I think it really requires someone to be as well-rounded as possible," he says. "They need to have a range of movement, flexibility, jumps and spins and have the kind of presentation that connects to the audience."

This can be a tall order to say the least.

"The boys seem to have the 'rock star' thing' and lots of moxy, while more often than not the ladies play it safe," Wilson says. "I wish there were more girls who would try to have a bit more fire.

"All of the great champions had it, and I would like to see it. Otherwise the ladies in an event can have a sameness about them."

 

[skatinginbc]

For Cynthia Phaneuf to get into top fives, she has to land all her jumps, and to the podium, improve her speed. I see no future for her in terms of winning a medal unless she can fix her inconsistency soon. I hear her time clicking.

As far as "sameness" goes, I don't really have any problem with it. Those that fall into the "sameness" category are not good skaters to begin with anyway. No matter what programs they skate to, they will always look the same--uninspiring, unrefined, cheesy..... On the other hand, someone like Alissa Czisny will always catch my eye with her natural grace and amazing spins even if she skates to a same-old-same-old music. For an elite skater, to find his/her own niche/style is far more important than to be different just for the sake of it. Wilson hoped that there were more girls trying to have a bit more fire, and the consequence: Yuna's facial expressions are becoming more and more exaggerated, to a point that I found lack of sincerity in her performance. If she continues to add more "fire", I will be so sickened and cannot wait to see the day when Mao is crowned the Queen.

A "fitting" style (to be oneself), rather than a "different" style (to be different), is always the best strategy. I hope Patrick Chan will not listen to Wilson and try to be a "rock star". The mere thought of it just sickens my stomach.

Examples of "honest" (sincere, fitting) performance from the last season: Kozuka's LP and Chan's SP. None of them tried to be moxy or fiery. They shined from within, from being themselves.

 

[dorispulaski]

Based on her performance at the Japan Open, what I'd like to see in the Canadian women's ranks is for Joannie make a comeback!

 

[sequinsgalore]

Based on her performance at the Japan Open, what I'd like to see in the Canadian women's ranks is for Joannie make a comeback!

She'd be #1 for sure. There's simply not much depth in Canadian ladies. How come ladies is always their weakest discipline?

 

[Mrs. P]

She'd be #1 for sure. There's simply not much depth in Canadian ladies. How come ladies is always their weakest discipline?

It does seem quite odd given how strong the Canadian men are.

Here's a lowdown of the Canadian world medalists and when they won their last world medal (no. of medals; their last medal; olympic medals)
Canada Cecil Smith - 1930 (1; silver)
Constance Wilson-Samuel - 1932 (1; bronze)
Barbara Ann Scott - 1948 (2; gold + Olympic Gold 1948)
Wendy Griner - 1962 (1 silver)
Petra Burka - 1966 (3; bronze + Olympic Bronze (1964)
Karen Magnussen - 1973 (3; gold + Olympic Silver (1972))
Liz Manley - 1988 (1; silver + Olympic Silver (1988))
Joannie Rochette - 2009 (1 silver + Olympic Bronze (2010))

So it seems a world-medal medalist comes from the Canadian Ladies, comes on average about every 10 years. So it may be a while until we see a high-caliber Canadian woman. But as you can see, the general recent pattern is someone who does make it up the world ranks also ends up seeing success in the Olympics.

 

[dorispulaski]

Perhaps the good ladies skaters make it to the point to qualify for pairs or dance and move on, and no longer compete as singles?

That would be the only thing that makes sense to me.

 

[colleen o'neill]

This is a knotty problem. They can say they're focusing on rebuilding the women's program, but I don't think it was ever really built properly in the first place. Yes, occasionally some extraordinary talent would come along , but there was no reservoir of budding talent behind them. Well, the talent may have been there, but it was largely unpolished.

Recently I noticed a thread ( maybe on another site ) titled something like "What's wrong with US Women's skating ?"..???.. I just guffawed, thinking ... high class problems , Canada should be so lucky.

In Canada's case , sadly , it has to come down to the coaching. Though our population is smaller , we may have nearly as many girls enrolled as in the States. I haven't checked stats recently , but we used to have more.. though on breakdown, we may have had a higher percentage at the purely recreational level, I don't know.

When David Wilson cites a lack of "fire" in the girls, I think he's being PC..I'm sure our girls have the desire to stand atop the podium , like any other girls , and I'm sure talent reveals itself on a regular basis..but somehow , we're not equipping these girls to be competitive. So I wonder, for example , if our coaches are up to date on modern methods for teaching jumps ? Jumps , edges , footwork ..those are things SC can do something about through their coaching seminars. Would the girls have a bit more freedom and "fire" if they could feel more confident in their jumps ? ( for example )

Of course , the elephant in the room is the general lack of dance training. Summer before last , at BC Summer Skate, they had live commentary and people were texting in questions . Someone asked why , generally , Canadian girls didn't have more dance training. Jamie McGrigor fielded the question. He replied that SC did argue for it , recommend it.. but SC couldn't force people to undertake it. It would mean extra money for the parents, extra running around for the parents..and put that way, it sounds reasonable . Does that mean we're stuck?

To me, the answer would be that it must somehow be included in the coaching, particularly at the younger levels.I know that not every rink will have a lot of off-ice training space , but even a set of barre excercises for stretching, and turn out , excercises in port de bras and carriage wouldn't take much room. A couple of sessions a week from early in development would make a huge difference later on. Our skaters wouldn't be constantly playing catch-up. They will have formed good habits early, and not have to undergo a major modification when they're found to be lacking in these areas. For the young skaters , it would just be part of what it takes to skate, not an 'extra' thing to take on. They'd be with other skaters, so wouldn't suddenly find themselves the duds in a group of purely dance students.

I type so slow , I can't go on but I do want to add that I watched not all of the big summer competitions, but a lot of each of them. My god ! The stream of young girls seemed endless..I repeat, I didn't see all of them but good posture , turnout, soft arms were rare. Even more rare than promising jumps. Of all the girls I saw only one really stood out as equally promising in all areas, and that was Chantelle Ing at novice. She had obviously had dance, or rhythmic gymnastics ( which includes ballet exercises ), or something like it.

Surely this situation can be rectified.

For a long while, Russia seemed to make sure their pairs and ice dancers had dance training , but curiously , not so much their single ladies. We still saw some good athletes ( jumpers ) from them ,but often lacking in grace, line , attractive positions. That is no longer the case , and look at the renaissance they're having.Those girls aren't just jumping beans.

ETA: doris.. could be , but sometimes it might be that the ladies reach a certain point and figure their jumps aren't strong enough for singles , and so move on..and too often they still need refinement type corrections.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

If I recall correctly, Skate Canada used to promote putting off teaching girls how to do triples until after puberty on the assumption that most girls would lose their triples. It also has something to do with the way the competitions are set up, but I know others have a stronger grasp on that.

As a rule, though, Canada is staggeringly bad at developing the next generation of talent. SC often just waits until someone hits that magic level. The breadth of talent means that someone will generally get there (and then you do have people like Chan and Virtue/Moir who were clearly projects of the federation, and that turned out very well.) so they often don't think to worry about it. I think if we had more years like 2004 (no Canadian on the podium in any discipline) there would be more concern.

 

[nemequittepas]

I don't think that men in Canada are that much better off. Take Chan away, and who have we got? There is no depth there either.

 

[seniorita]

Based on her performance at the Japan Open, what I'd like to see in the Canadian women's ranks is for Joannie make a comeback!

^ this. She is always great to watch although I actually payed attention to her programs really late. And now after so much touring she has done after Vancouver she is even better, whatever I ve seen from the japanese/korean galas, she shows great personality in her programs.

 

[Olympia]

I agree with Doris and Seniorita. Joannie is able to give an expressive performance and has a powerful yet graceful technique. I know it's a lot of work to keep training competitively, but I'd love to see more from Joannie.

 

[Scout]

A lot of Canadian girls only seem to be able to get 3S and 3T somewhat consistent. This is great for pairs, but not so much for singles. I'm not so much concerned about the lack of dance training. You need to be able to jump and be a jumping bean first. That's not to say you can't take dance lessons and work on the artistic side of figure skating when you're young. It's just that it is more critical at the younger ages that you can jump. Yuna landed her first triple flip at age 11. Look at all the young Russians with a full arsenal of triples and some triple-triples at age 12. How old was Tuktamysheva when she landed her first 3A? If Canada wants to be more competitive, then having only a reliable 3S and 3T at age 16 isn't going to cut it. Skate Canada billed Natasha Purich recent JGP skate as a promising start to a solo career. I think she skated well, I think she should be very proud of herself, but I'd bet money that she's not going to win a world or Olympic medal for Canada in singles.

I think instead of focusing on junior or senior women, we need to go even further back.

I remember seeing a video of 6 year old Emily Hughes on youtube (skating with nicole bobek) with a solid 1A. I didn't see that at the club I trained at. 6 year olds were in Canskate, wearing helmets and learnings how to do crosscuts. Maybe there were some 6 years who just got out on Canskate and were learning 1S or 1T. But there wasn't a single 6 year old who was even attempting single axels. Most girls learning the axel were 10 years old, and for many of them, it would take about a year to learn the jump. Obviously this isn't true of all clubs. But I would guess it's true at a lot of clubs.

If you look at our Juvenile girls, there aren't nearly as many as I'd like with a solid 2A. At the 2008 & 2009 Canadian Junior Championships - the last two years with a Juvenile competition, no girls in the top 5 attempted a 2A. In 2007, there was one successful attempt in the top 5 by the winner, Roxanne Rheault. She's curreently struggling with her triples. Aren't many of the juvenile girls 12 years old? No 2A at age 12 is not a good thing. Not when the 12 year old Russians have ALL their triples. The US usually has at least a handful of girls with a 2A in juvenile. Katia Shpilband landed a gorgeous one at the juvenile level and IIRC, she finished off the podium.

It is possible to be a late bloomer. I'm always rooting for the underdog. But odds are much better if you get the jumps when you're younger. I believe Lesley Hawker landed her first triple at age 18. She eventually got all her triples (less the 3A), but how many people outside of Canada know her?

Link to EMily's skate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeSDFjOhvQ8
If it doesn't work, you can just search 'Emily Hughes Nicole Bobek' in youtube.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I don't think that men in Canada are that much better off. Take Chan away, and who have we got? There is no depth there either.

True, though Rogozine and Reynolds are better than LaCoste and Samson/Szmiett (whoever's next in line).

 

[nadster]

I think that Scout is right that our ladies do not learn the jumps early enough. A lot of it is that the promising canskate skaters are not fast-tracked quickly enough at most clubs. They basically have to stay in their helmets for the canskate sessions they paid for, even if they have clearly graduated that stage.

The other thing is that we have to increase the competitiveness at the lower levels. Currently the best pre-juveniles and juveniles with a section are only guaranteed to meet once a year at the sectional championship. We need our most talented skaters meeting each other more often so that they can push each other more to greater heights. One thing that could be done is making sure that the summer and fall competitions have event finals at all levels. At younger ages that external simulation of being around other great skaters is vital.

As well a rethink of simply dividing sections along provincial lines does not make sense when there are huge population differences between sections. When PEI is its own section, that section is so small that often sectional competitions are meaningless since they all get a straight bye to the challenge simply because there are 4 or fewer entrants there.

As for ballet training, it is needed but also keep in mind that bad ballet training is worse that no ballet training at all as bad ballet training also reinforces bad habits.

 

[skatinginbc]

I don't know if my impression is correct or not: There seem fewer Canadian skaters (especially girls) that have suffered a jump-related injury. Maybe our training program put health above all else.

 

[CdnSkateWatcher]

My skater is in the Canadian competitive stream, and my comments are in line with what is above. No, you don't see 2A in Juvie - male or female - and you don't even see it often in Pre-novice. Why? Because you haven't needed it to win or place. The skaters are skating to the "norm" for their level - which means that there are Juvie girls who are winning competitions with a 2S and 2T, and a level 1 spin. There is no incentive to have more. In Pre-Novice and up - there is now more of a push to bring on the big jumps, as the are giving "rewards" in terms of points for skaters who land 2A and up in Pre-Novice, and extra "allowed" jumps in Novice and up for the triples. However, that is new this year; and it will take a long time to trickle down through the ranks. But, the barbell effect between the skaters who land the big jumps at that level and the ones that don't may push some skaters right out of competitive skating and back to test track (STarskate). Which may be good, and may raise the level of what you need to have to compete at a level.

However, Canskate is now being revised and revamped - the pilot program is running at a few clubs - and maybe a better feeder system will help overall. We'll have to see.

 

[Simoncat]

All of the above statements are somewhat correct. Yes,now days promising candidates don't get approached by the figure skating coaches and hockey and ringette coaches have no inhibitions about approaching promising skaters and parentsright in the middle of the CAn Skate programme.However,I think a lot comes down to attitude. In larger sections,they do have "chosen" ones,but they frequently are forced to produce by numbers down below. In smaller Sections,politics usually chooses a very limited number of "chosen" and the rest know that no matter how anyone skates they won't get a chance. Also,too few in this circumstance see any need to put themselves up against tough competition when they can reep the advantages by staying home and winning. SC also feeds into this by choosing and holding up skaters year after year who just can't do it,and promising skaters,tired of this,just leave. I don't think the problem is entirely the coaching-rather I think there is pressure to leave the coach exerted from SC when a skater does show promise in spite of them-a group of coaches once referred to this(among which was PC's coach,and Karen Magnussen's coach).The opinion was that in the US when a skater begins to show promise the skater and coach are together supported instead of the skater being pressured to change coaches. Finally, the need for proper off ice training is really necessary,not just dance,but fitness and health care. I once had the opportunity to observe a program which centred on the coach,dance coaches,athletic trainers,and chiropractic care together. This produced several internatioal medallists and national competitors. When figures were ended,nothing formally replaced them or the wrong programs were introduced. The result is as is seen at every competition. Finally,the figure skaters in most areas have to fight for an ever dwindling ice usage against extremely aggressive demands by other users. Figure skaters are also at the mercy of ice times dictated by hockey,and school systems which take no account of their needs.

 

[colleen o'neill]

nadster.. I certainly wasn't arguing for bad ballet training... But for the younger skaters at least , it doesn't have to be advanced training.

 

[nadster]

nadster.. I certainly wasn't arguing for bad ballet training... But for the younger skaters at least , it doesn't have to be advanced training.

I never called for advanced training just good quality basic training on alignment, posture and flexibility.

Maybe I should tell you some of the horror stories I have had with some ballet teachers. I have heard 4 ballet teachers ( one who is a dance professor at a university and another who teaches a ballet for figure skaters class ) say that figure skaters don't need to know hip turnout. One of them even said to me that she tried learning figure skating as a child and her ability to turnout her hips prevented her from learning to skate.

Having any of these 4 as a teacher would surely send a skater backwards.

 

[hohoho]

I think we should go to 3 sections for the Canadian competitive stream (Quebec and Atlantic Canada, Ontario, and Manitoba West. Set up a series similar to the Grand Prix events where skaters need to qualify for a "Regional Sectionals" (Quebec and Atlantic Canada, Ontario, and western provinces. The top 25 from each respective "Region" would go to sectionals where it would be reduced to 10 skaters that qualify for Challenge. Challenge would reduce qualifying to 15 skaters and Nationals would run the way they are now. Certian events would have to be agreed upon as being qualifying events. This way, real competitive skaters have to compete in events that have meaning. Top two events skated. You have to skate two events to qualify for Regionals. This would help eliminate the problem of stronger skaters in one current section being left behind at sectionals when a weaker skater goes through from another section.

Currently in some sections, the first "meaningful" competition that skaters have is Challenge. Skaters need to compete against higher level talent to be pushed to do better. Instead of 52 Novice ladies going to Challenge, only 30 would go and 15 advance to Nationals. You may have 10 from any one "Region", but from Challenge they were the better skaters. By cutting down the number to 15 at Nationals, bring the Pre-Novice and Juveniles back to Nationals. Give them exposure to not only compete, but to see the higher levels on competition - what they will need for the next level.

So basically, skaters would have to compete in 4 meaningful competitions to compete at Nationals