2014 Worlds - Ladies Free Skating

[sk8in]

All choreography is based on physical ability. You work with what you've got. Midori Ito could deliver certain programs better than anyone else because her massive jumps change the look of the choreography. Sasha Cohen could deliver certain programs better than anyone else because her amazing extension allowed her to create choreography that others couldn't.

Skater's choreography has to fall within the realm of their physical capability, however it is not have to be any one thing---where as jumps have to meet a specific definition. You don't get to decide how you do a flip, an axle, or a lutz. If you do it incorrectly, you lose points. But a technical panel is not going to review how Yuna Kim does her bendy elbow thing in Adios Nonino. Her physical abilities are incidental to that move. Yes there are moves in choreography that only certain skaters can perform. Julia can lift her ankle over her head or whatever. But she's not going to be evaluated on how she performs that move. The evaluation is how that moves relates to the music, and contributes to a program's cohesion.

 

[zamboni step]

Skater's choreography has to fall within the realm of their physical capability, however it is not have to be any one thing---where as jumps have to meet a specific definition. You don't get to decide how you do a flip, an axle, or a lutz. If you do it incorrectly, you lose points. But a technical panel is not going to review how Yuna Kim does her bendy elbow thing in Adios Nonino. Her physical abilities are incidental to that move. Yes there are moves in choreography that only certain skaters can perform. Julia can lift her ankle over her head or whatever. But she's not going to be evaluated on how she performs that move. The evaluation is how that moves relates to the music, and contributes to a program's cohesion.

She most definitely will be evaluated on how she performs that move, it is a transition, and quality of the execution of the transition is an important factor. You can't just have skaters doing messy steps into jumps getting the same points as someone executing clean edges and sharp steps going into them, the spiral is no different.

Choreography isn't just supposed to be judged on an artistic/emotional impression though. It is about the timing, and the unity of the movements. I still really don't get this argument. The triple flip that Gracie Gold does and the triple flip that Mao Asada does are aspiring to be the same thing. They have differences in technique, but this is based on their physical ability. They don't choose to do it any particular way. I get how a fall can ruin the impression of a program, but that's an emotional reaction. You're painting "choreography" with too broad a brush.

That's the whole point, there are some programs that, whilst pretty, don't have any impact such as Kim's Les Miserables program last year, it had some nice moments and it had most of the moves in the right place, but it was missing something to make it truly moving. It wasn't Kim's skating, that makes people pretty emotional (in a good way), it was the choreography not being quite as effective as it could be. Whereas if you look at Julia Lipnitskaya's FS, the choreography and the outfit bring her halfway there already towards a very moving performance. Emotional effect has a lot to do with choreography and should therefore be taken into account for the CH mark. If that's the case popping a jump definitely diminishes from it a little, and several errors together definitely spoil the whole effect of the program unless it's suiting the nature of the music, which is rare.

 

[David21]

Choreography isn't just supposed to be judged on an artistic/emotional impression though. It is about the timing, and the unity of the movements. I still really don't get this argument. The triple flip that Gracie Gold does and the triple flip that Mao Asada does are aspiring to be the same thing. They have differences in technique, but this is based on their physical ability. They don't choose to do it any particular way. I get how a fall can ruin the impression of a program, but that's an emotional reaction. You're painting "choreography" with too broad a brush.
If Jason Brown did 3 quads in his Riverdance would he really deserve highers PCS for choreography because quads are more exciting? Asking judges to parse the emotional impact of a particular jump just seems ludicrous.

Finally someone who knows the rules

 

[Blades of Passion]

Skater's choreography has to fall within the realm of their physical capability, however it is not have to be any one thing---where as jumps have to meet a specific definition. You don't get to decide how you do a flip, an axle, or a lutz.

Yes you do get to decide how you do it (within whatever your capabilities are), it's called technique and transitions and arm positions. Some skaters mohawk into their Flip. Some three-turn into it. Some skaters take a long time to get into the jump (like Kostner does) and some are capable of doing it out of other movements. You can do it in tano position. You can do it in rippon position. You can do it with both arms held down at your side (very difficult). You can do it with a leg wrap. You can try to delay the rotation. You can purposely try to jump higher or lower depending on the music and if you need more control on the jump for a transition. All of these things create different nuances in the choreography.

Julia can lift her ankle over her head or whatever. But she's not going to be evaluated on how she performs that move. The evaluation is how that moves relates to the music, and contributes to a program's cohesion.

As has already been said, she is definitely evaluated on it. Details like toe point are certainly important to a discerning judge. Yu-Na Kim's I-spin position is not very good, for example, and that can detract from the choreography when she is doing it.

 

[David21]

I promise this is my last post in this thread...

Yu-Na Kim's I-spin position is not very good, for example, and that can detract from the choreography when she is doing it.

When something "detracts from the choreography", then this should be considered under other PCS like PE (e.g. if your position is ugly) or IN (e.g. if you don't hit the beat of the music). The choreography was there regardless and for CH it is the intent, idea and purpose which counts. How you deliver it and if it that delivering "distracts from the chroreography" or not is not judged in CH. That's what the rules which I were quoting in my post above are telling anyway.

 

[zamboni step]

I promise this is my last post in this thread...

When something "detracts from the choreography", then this should be considered under other PCS like PE (e.g. if your position is ugly) or IN (e.g. if you don't hit the beat of the music). The choreography was there regardless and for CH it is the intent, idea and purpose which counts. How you deliver it and if it that delivering "distracts from the chroreography" or not is not judged in CH. That's what the rules which I were quoting in my post above are telling anyway.

This was your last post, but Im going to respond anyway. That last point about if you miss the beat should completely detract from the CH, otherwise everyone could say they meant for everything to be in time with the music in which case Caros Bolero having everything timed perfectly with the music wouldn't be worth any more than a sloppily done out of rhythm program in that respect. That's wrong.

 

[sk8in]

She most definitely will be evaluated on how she performs that move, it is a transition, and quality of the execution of the transition is an important factor. You can't just have skaters doing messy steps into jumps getting the same points as someone executing clean edges and sharp steps going into them, the spiral is no different.

Right, but she doesn't get held to a standard of how high her ankle goes. She chooses to do that because flexibility is her strength. The twizzle itself is done by numerous skaters. It has a unilateral standard for everyone doing a program. The movements that Yulia choose to do individually that are part of the choreography are not assessed for their adherence to a method of execution. She can stop and throw her arms to the sky, or pull and Adelina and wave to people. That stuff has nothing to do with particular skating moves, which have technical criteria.

 

[zamboni step]

Right, but she doesn't get held to a standard of how high her ankle goes. She chooses to do that because flexibility is her strength. The twizzle itself is done by numerous skaters. It has a unilateral standard for everyone doing a program. The movements that Yulia choose to do individually that are part of the choreography are not assessed for their adherence to a method of execution. She can stop and throw her arms to the sky, or pull and Adelina and wave to people. That stuff has nothing to do with particular skating moves, which have technical criteria.

So....there's no point to ballet training as it doesn't matter how sloppily you do it? What exactly is your point?

 

[David21]

Hey, so I'm responding anyway, too

This was your last post, but Im going to respond anyway. That last point about if you miss the beat should completely detract from the CH, otherwise everyone could say they meant for everything to be in time with the music in which case Caros Bolero having everything timed perfectly with the music wouldn't be worth any more than a sloppily done out of rhythm program in that respect. That's wrong.

A sloppily done out of rhythm program would/should score low in PE and IN and maybe also in TR and SS. Why would it be so wrong for giving the skater at least credit in one component when the choreo is ambitious? There's really nothing wrong with that. As long as the choreo is recognizable and not left out, a skater deserves credit for it, even if not done well.

 

[Blades of Passion]

When something "detracts from the choreography", then this should be considered under other PCS like PE (e.g. if your position is ugly).

NO. *sigh*

Choreography is about MOVEMENT and FORM. Every movement made in the entire performance is choreography. I'm not going to say it again.

A spin with a bad position is bad choreography at that moment in the program (unless the bad position was for purposeful comedic effect or some other type of valid reason). The deduction should only be in Performance if the skater also performs it poorly. A skater can have a poor Layback position but sell it brilliantly, for example.

 

[Miss Ice]

Ok, two things. The reason I mentioned specifically Russian girls + weight, is because I am a figure skater and while I skated at one of the rinks in Russia, my mother had a conversation with another skater's mother. This skater was training competitively at the rink, and her mother told of how the coach did not allow the girls to eat and kept them on a strict diet to maintain their slender figures. This is a thing there, trust me, and it has a much larger scale than in other countries. And whoever said that "all Russian girls are this small at 15" -- please. Take it from someone who has lived there, no, they are not. Girls at 15 are almost fully developed, yet most of these skaters look like they are still in the pre-puberty 11-12 years old stage. This is just an observation and a reflection of how conditions are in Russia, not meant to offend anyone in any way.

Secondly, I was really impressed with So-Youn Park's "Swan Lake", even though I had never seen her skate before. Has this girl studied ballet when she was younger? Her movements are superb and I guess she needs a bit more time to improve her "skating skills" (or get the judges give her the PCS she deserves). Her style reminds me of a mix between Sasha and Yuna. Plus she is really genuinely pretty.

 

[David21]

NO. *sigh*

Choreography is about MOVEMENT and FORM. Every movement made in the entire performance is choreography. I'm not going to say it again.

A spin with a bad position is bad choreography at that moment in the program (unless the bad position was for purposeful comedic effect or some other type of valid reason). The deduction should only be in Performance if the skater also performs it poorly. A skater can have a poor Layback position but sell it brilliantly, for example.

No offense but you need to read the rulebook.

 

[Components]

Ok, two things. The reason I mentioned specifically Russian girls + weight, is because I am a figure skater and while I skated at one of the rinks in Russia, my mother had a conversation with another skater's mother. This skater was training competitively at the rink, and her mother told of how the coach did not allow the girls to eat and kept them on a strict diet to maintain their slender figures. This is a thing there, trust me, and it has a much larger scale than in other countries. And whoever said that "all Russian girls are this small at 15" -- please. Take it from someone who has lived there, no, they are not. Girls at 15 are almost fully developed, yet most of these skaters look like they are still in the pre-puberty 11-12 years old stage. This is just an observation and a reflection of how conditions are in Russia, not meant to offend anyone in any way.

Secondly, I was really impressed with So-Youn Park's "Swan Lake", even though I had never seen her skate before. Has this girl studied ballet when she was younger? Her movements are superb and I guess she needs a bit more time to improve her "skating skills" (or get the judges give her the PCS she deserves). Her style reminds me of a mix between Sasha and Yuna. Plus she is really genuinely pretty.

They're atheletes. Atheletes often do not develop at the same rate as a normal person. We see this all the time with Gymnasts and other elite sports with high training regimens. The skaters train so hard that they do not develop equivalently to a normal person, and this is why growth spurts are such a huge obstacle to them. Typically when they go through puberty, it's a bit more of a drastic change to an athelete than to a normal person because their training tends to stunt development in some areas.

This is why a lot of Elite Gymnasts retire and then it looks like they went through puberty overnight.

Managing weight and diet is a fairly common part of many elite sports. Even Skiers and atheletes in other sports that are a lot less "subjective" and "looks-oriented" than figure skating have to deal with that. Sometimes you have to keep your weight/body fat/mass down, and sometimes (like with LoLo Jones going to Bobsledding) you actually have to put weight ON.

I understand what you're saying, and there is merit to it. However, distinctions need to be made. There is a difference between a coach providing guidance for developing an athelete (this includes On/Off Ice training, Nutrition, etc.) and a coach pushing a child towards an eating disorder are simply half starving them because they think the skater looks better when she's skinny.

Tuktamysheva has developed a woman's body and before she fell in that FS and injured her ankle, it was going fabulously... So I don't think the Russian system can be generalized that way. Nutrition is very important to an athelete. They cannot just eat what they want and still maintain their form. That is just the way it works, and it's one of the sacrifices an elite athelete often has to make if they want to perform, succeed, and/or make a living doing what they do at that level.

 

[Miss Ice]

They're atheletes. Atheletes often do not develop at the same rate as a normal person. We see this all the time with Gymnasts and other elite sports with high training regimens. The skaters train so hard that they do not develop equivalently to a normal person, and this is why growth spurts are such a huge obstacle to them. Typically when they go through puberty, it's a bit more of a drastic change to an athelete than to a normal person because their training tends to stunt development in some areas.

This is why a lot of Elite Gymnasts retire and then it looks like they went through puberty overnight.

Managing weight and diet is a fairly common part of many elite sports. Even Skiers and atheletes in other sports that are a lot less "subjective" and "looks-oriented" than figure skating have to deal with that. Sometimes you have to keep your weight/body fat/mass down, and sometimes (like with LoLo Jones going to Bobsledding) you actually have to put weight ON.

There is a difference between "managing weight" and not allowing little girls to eat when they are supposed to. When you have reached a decent level ("elite" as you say), of course you have to maintain your weight, but coaches/skating schools shouldn't starve young skaters who are just working on doubles, for instance. This isn't even "elite" sports, this is literally imposed starvation since a young age when even the skaters don't know if they love the sport so much or if they will even reach that level. That is why many girls eventually quit before reaching that elite level, and if they do reach, they usually retain this underdeveloped/abnormally thin shape. Of course this is a generalization, but again, this is based on what I know for a fact about the training methods in Russia.

edit: exactly, the part before the last one that you added is exactly what I am saying. The coaches in that country are exactly about half-starving (usually) and NOT about "correct nutrition". unfortunately.

 

[Blades of Passion]

No offense but you need to read the rulebook.

Yes, you do. The criteria of choreography states purpose and form. What is the purpose of doing a spin position with bad form? Usually there is none. It's only there because it gains technical points, not because it is good choreography.

Furthermore, the "rulebook" is extensively flawed.

 

[Alba]

On the other hand, I also agree with Alba that an error on a jump is essentially a failure to execute the choreography, which should be reflected in the p/e component (then again, they're already taking a hit for execution in the GoE score, so is it really fair to ding them again in the p/e component?).

It depends on what kind of error is made. A missed jump, a fall,how big the fall is, how quick a skater is to get up and continue, shaky landing.
I don't think a missed triple should "punish" the coreo, but I do think should "punish" the performance/execution.
If you miss the steps and transitions than I would punish the coreo.

 

[David21]

It depends on what kind of error is made. A missed jump, a fall,how big the fall is, how quick a skater is to get up and continue, shaky landing.
I don't think a missed triple should "punish" the coreo, but I do think should "punish" the performance/execution.
If you miss the steps and transitions than I would punish the coreo.

I agree with this. If you "miss" choreo because of a technical mistake, then your score for choreo should suffer. Other mistakes, depending on how severe they are, don't affect the choreo but potentially can affect other scores like PE.

 

[Alba]

Ok, two things. The reason I mentioned specifically Russian girls + weight, is because I am a figure skater and while I skated at one of the rinks in Russia, my mother had a conversation with another skater's mother. This skater was training competitively at the rink, and her mother told of how the coach did not allow the girls to eat and kept them on a strict diet to maintain their slender figures. This is a thing there, trust me, and it has a much larger scale than in other countries. And whoever said that "all Russian girls are this small at 15" -- please. Take it from someone who has lived there, no, they are not. Girls at 15 are almost fully developed, yet most of these skaters look like they are still in the pre-puberty 11-12 years old stage. This is just an observation and a reflection of how conditions are in Russia, not meant to offend anyone in any way.

We should start a petition against Russia: Stop starving your girls, get some steak from the West!
Can we make 2 million (how many are required?) signatures? :think:

 

[nguyhm]

She's just a shy girl, she smiles a lot. It's just they captured the moment she didn't smile. She emits an innocent and fairy aura. My mum said she looks like an angel.

I think she's been trained to "grow up" before her time. Once she has a chance to relax she's transformed into the "little girl" like the way she picked up the cap that someone has thrown onto the ice and wore it while waiting for her score in the k&c after her team event long program. To me that is the "real" Yulia once the pressure is off, so cute.

 

[elee63]

Ok, two things. The reason I mentioned specifically Russian girls + weight, is because I am a figure skater and while I skated at one of the rinks in Russia, my mother had a conversation with another skater's mother. This skater was training competitively at the rink, and her mother told of how the coach did not allow the girls to eat and kept them on a strict diet to maintain their slender figures. This is a thing there, trust me, and it has a much larger scale than in other countries. And whoever said that "all Russian girls are this small at 15" -- please. Take it from someone who has lived there, no, they are not. Girls at 15 are almost fully developed, yet most of these skaters look like they are still in the pre-puberty 11-12 years old stage. This is just an observation and a reflection of how conditions are in Russia, not meant to offend anyone in any way.

Secondly, I was really impressed with So-Youn Park's "Swan Lake", even though I had never seen her skate before. Has this girl studied ballet when she was younger? Her movements are superb and I guess she needs a bit more time to improve her "skating skills" (or get the judges give her the PCS she deserves). Her style reminds me of a mix between Sasha and Yuna. Plus she is really genuinely pretty.

The Korean skaters, especially those that are coming up the ranks have started to take ballet. The two Kims, and Park took from the same instructor, if I remember correctly