Dick Button: What Went Wrong With Figure Skating

[Mathman]

About Mr. Button's lament that speed skaters are spending all the hard-earned money that figure skaters bring in, this complaint has been around for decsades. It used to be true, but now there isn't any money to fight over anyway.

As for forming a separate organizarion for figure skating only, or otherwise trying to seceed from or to reform the ISU, the problem is that the ISU is the favorite of the International POlympic Committee (Cinquanta is a member, since 1996). Any new organization would have to forego the Olympics.

The part of Mr. Button's piece that I agree with is his objection that the ISU judging system tries to quantify things that are natually qualities, rather than quantities. This leads to the round peg in a square hole that is the IJS.

 

[pangtongfan]

Before Sochi, Kim and Hanyu were definitely the gold medal favorites. The proof of who is the favorite for something is bookies, and bookies had them both as solid favorites, and in fact Chan was the odds on favorite with odds below 1-1. Kim was not the odds on favorite as none of her odds were set below 1-1, but still was a clear first favorite ahead of second and third favorites Mao and Julia (their odds were close, and were higher and lower in different places).

After the mens short program Hanyu became the overwhelming favorite though with odds set at something like 4-1 vs 1-7 for Chan. Probably since they had seen Chan skate almost cleanly and still lose the short program by almost 4 points to Hanyu, and knowing that Hanyu had harder jumps in the LP planned so if he compared that favorably when they both had the same difficulty even with Chan skating well, and with Chan's dropping confidence after the last 2 months, well.....it was appropriate to make the change at that point lets say. However even before the the mens short program Chan was the odds on bookies favorite, and thus the clear favorite by the definition of what that means to win.

 

[Mathman]

You should also know that I am entirely unaffected by the fact that other people may find my writing "unpleasant."

IMHO, pleasant is better. Unpleasantness -- there is already quite a bit out there without our contributions. :yes:

 

[NYscorp6]

I don't agree with this, Kim absolutely did not come into 2014 Games as a favorite. One favorite in a very strong field, yes, but absolutely not as a coronation. Perhaps 2010 but certainly not 2014.

Same re: Chan, absolutely not.

I'm not so sure, my impression definitely was different than yours prior to the games. Whenever you have reigning World Champions competing they are considered the favorites. Yuna was also the reigning Olympic champion. the 2013 World champion dance and pair teams were successful in winning the Olympic Gold.

 

[Nadya]

IMHO, pleasant is better. Unpleasantness -- there is already quite a bit out there without our contributions. :yes:

I promise I"ll never be unpleasant to you!

 

[Anna K.]

Read more carefully next time: I didn't say I disagree with political discourse in general, I only said it is generally designed with idiots in mind. Political speech is never aimed at the highest denominator.

You should also know that I am entirely unaffected by the fact that other people may find my writing "unpleasant."

Aw, no problem that you enjoy being rude. You’re not the only one on this forum who does. This is the price we pay for the freedom of speech

However, we’re discussing facts. Read more carefully you too: I didn't disagree with you not disagreeing with political discourse. However, it's designed not “with idiots in mind”. It’s designed with majority in mind because no decision can be taken in a democratic society otherwise. Hence this is important to keep things simple so that people with the most different background could agree upon them. I really don’t think it’s smart to be too smart to find consensus or, to fail to respect the interests of other parties. The later is only my opinion for sure. You’re free to think the opposite

 

[NYscorp6]

The annointing of Chan and Yu Na was by the media, not by the ISU, judges, or people behind the scenes. The media should never be representative of a fixed outcome. In the cases of both, especialy Yu Na, the only expectation was that they would likely outskate their competitors to win. Which obviously was correct as Yu Na clearly did that, and only ended up with a silver medal indeed due to "fixing" but against her, not for her.

I do agree that the media plays a big part in this unfairly, I was disgusted with Scott Hamilton and his bias toward the Canadian team in the 2002 pairs fiasco. To be honest it still bothers me whenever I see or hear him. I do believe that whenever judges hold up a skaters score because of reputation it discredits the sport. Yuna didn't seem on top of her game, she has handled the aftermath extremely well. Patrick just couldn't deliver, actually the whole men's event was bad.

 

[Alba]

For me THE favorite prior to Sochi was Mao.
After her it was Yuna than Sotnikova. I thought Carolina will fall so didn't count on her.
I was surprised that people were talking so much about Yulia - even though she is my fav. and had the European title - and no one about Adelina.

 

[Mathman]

I thought the way the media played it was to cast Julia Lipnitskia as the hard-charging wonderkind who had Yuna Kim looking over her shoulder. Snow White versus the Queen -- now who is fairest of them all?

 

[Blades of Passion]

But the thing is, no top skaters who successfully rose to the cream of their craft lack artistry per se

Yes there are. Totmianina/Marinin, Zhang/Zhang (the female partner), Miki Ando, Evan Lysacek, Hanyu's LP this season and last season, Patrick Chan's deflated skating when all the mistakes happen, several of Davis/White's programs. All of them extremely successful with uninteresting performances because of CoP (and the judges) rewarding empty complexity rather than what skating should be more about.

Besides, he is comparing two extremes. Reality is rarely so black and white. What if you have a stunningly artistic skater who happens to have a simpler technique or a slightly flawed technique, and and amazing yet workaday technician? Who wins? How much simpler does the artist have to be to lose to the technician? How much more complex should technique be to defeat an artiste? By one jump? By three spins? How much?

That's exactly what the scoring system is supposed to decide. If scored correctly the artist should be getting 9's/10's for Performance/Choreography/Interpretation and the other person should be getting 6's. It's up to the technician to include enough content, and execute it well enough, to overcome whatever that gap is. The problem is those scores are almost never being judged correctly.

 

[Nadya]

Yes there are. Totmianina/Marinin, Zhang/Zhang (the female partner), Miki Ando, Evan Lysacek, Hanyu's LP this season and last season, Patrick Chan's deflated skating when all the mistakes happen, several of Davis/White's programs. All of them extremely successful with uninteresting performances because of CoP (and the judges) rewarding empty complexity rather than what skating should be more about.

The bolded is the rub. What skating "should" be about is a personal preference. You feel that skating is about storytelling above else, and thus you wish this skill to be rewarded above all else (correct me if I am wrong). Yet it is not incorrect to believe that competitive skating is about flawless execution of technical elements while looking good. It's not incorrect to prefer a steady technician with beautiful lines (Totmianina) to someone like, say, Cohen. And it is certainly not incorrect to score a technically flawless, if uninteresting performance, above a stunning storyteller who simply didn't do enough on the ice. It's about scoring, yes, but it's also about the weight of scores assigned to different strengths. You and Button seem to want to reward the ability to storytell above all else. Note Button doesn't complain that the scores are corrupt, he complains that they don't reward artistry enough. That's a valid point of view. But it's not the Holy Grail. It's perfectly possible to believe otherwise and not be evil.

 

[JayW]

Good for uncle Button! At his age, he can pretty much say whatever he thinks without worrying about repercussion.

I doubt anyone, whose career may be affected by negative comment on ISU, has the gut to say something like this.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The bolded is the rub. What skating "should" be about is a personal preference.

It's not a personal preference when it comes to the business of ice skating. People don't care about ice skating the way as it is now. The sport is dying and it's even more dead on the professional side. It's clear that ice skating needs more artistry/performance in order for it to be relevant.

Dick was NOT just talking about the artistry of skating either, as you purport. He was talking about not rewarding failure and not rewarding messy programs. Ice skating isn't even taken seriously as sport right now either, because of the ridiculous amount of points that people get for falling on jumps or making other large mistakes.

 

[Nadya]

It's not a personal preference when it comes to the business of ice skating. People don't care about ice skating the way as it is now. The sport is dying and it's even more dead on the professional side. It's clear that ice skating needs more artistry/performance in order for it to be relevant.

Dick was NOT just talking about the artistry of skating either, as you purport. He was talking about not rewarding failure and not rewarding messy programs. Ice skating isn't even taken seriously as sport right now either, because of the ridiculous amount of points that people get for falling on jumps or making other large mistakes.

But what does the business side have to do with sports? Athletic achievement and advertiser interest don't necessarily go hand in hand. You don't KNOW that skating needs more artistry/performance to be relevant. Lots of sports are relevant; are they all artistic? You have a theory and you're entitled to it, but it's silly to parade this as God's Honest Truth. You equate the loss of television interest with the death of sports, but if television ceased to exist tomorrow, skating would still be alive for those who want to skate.

Ice skating wasn't ever taken completely seriously as a sport, and that has nothing to do with the ridiculous amount of points people get for falling. If you ask a Joe Blow why he doesn't take figure skating seriously, I doubt very much he'd tell you "because someone can fall and still score high." You aren't arguing, are you, that prior to IJS skating was taken, I dunno, seriously?

 

[pangtongfan]

I do agree that the media plays a big part in this unfairly, I was disgusted with Scott Hamilton and his bias toward the Canadian team in the 2002 pairs fiasco. To be honest it still bothers me whenever I see or hear him. I do believe that whenever judges hold up a skaters score because of reputation it discredits the sport. Yuna didn't seem on top of her game, she has handled the aftermath extremely well. Patrick just couldn't deliver, actually the whole men's event was bad.

Anyone who has watched figure skating knows Yu Na kim is far from a judges favorite. In fact she is probably one of the most undermarked skaters ever. She clearly won all her major titles by outskating all her competitors by a huge margin- 2006 and 2007 grand prix final, 2009 grand prix final, 2009 worlds, 2010 Olympics, 2013 worlds. That is the only way she is even allowed to win. She was blatantly robbed of atleast 2 major titles- 2011 worlds, 2014 Olympics, and some felt she was also robbed of winning the 2008 worlds. Anointing of her is only due to her combination of consistency (vs the inconsistency of people like asada and Kostner) and deservedly huge scoring potential make her the likely winner more often than not. It certainly has nothing to do with a judges fix in her favor, quite the opposite, she has never gotten benefit of doubt from judges and has always had to more than earn every mark or placement she gets.

The anointing of Chan by the media had some merits as the judges have often anointed him even when he fails. In contrast to Yu Na Kim, one of the most undermarked skaters in history; Patrick Chan is arguably the most overmarked and held up skater in history. That said if the media were wiser they would notice Chan's scores have come down to earth this season (his scores at Skate Canada and TEB were both fair for how he skated, his only overscore of the year was the LP of the grand prix final), that Hanyu had improved to point he was a real threat, Canadian mens history in the Olympics, and so would not anointed Chan such a clear win. That was all the media's fault though, not representative of some fix in Chan's favor.

 

[Alba]

I thought the way the media played it was to cast Julia Lipnitskia as the hard-charging wonderkind who had Yuna Kim looking over her shoulder. Snow White versus the Queen -- now who is fairest of them all?

Yeah.
Seriously though. Sylvia Fontana was like "angry" with Yulia on Sky Ita, prior to the event, and didn't lose one moment of her time on tv to bash her. I was like OMG I can't imagine what is she going to say about Adelina but nothing.
Till she won and Fontana went crazy.

 

[Alba]

Ice skating wasn't ever taken completely seriously as a sport, and that has nothing to do with the ridiculous amount of points people get for falling. If you ask a Joe Blow why he doesn't take figure skating seriously, I doubt very much he'd tell you "because someone can fall and still score high." You aren't arguing, are you, that prior to IJS skating was taken, I dunno, seriously?

In Italy many belive figure skating it's not for men, for example.

 

[jenaj]

But what does the business side have to do with sports? Athletic achievement and advertiser interest don't necessarily go hand in hand. You don't KNOW that skating needs more artistry/performance to be relevant. Lots of sports are relevant; are they all artistic? You have a theory and you're entitled to it, but it's silly to parade this as God's Honest Truth. You equate the loss of television interest with the death of sports, but if television ceased to exist tomorrow, skating would still be alive for those who want to skate.

Business has everything to do with sport, for those who want to watch sporting events and those who want to see a sport thrive. Skating is one of the rare winter sports that actually had appeal for advertisers and television audiences. The 6.0 system, though not as simple as it looked, was still accessible to fans and created drama. Remember when fans used to hold up placards with 6.0s on them? Is anyone holding up a 220 placard? That isn't even a good score for the men! The artistry of skaters like Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen is what held the fans' interest. Now, artistry is devalued and programs tend to look the same, with crazy spin positions and long and laborious footwork sequences. We rarely see a beautiful spiral across the length of the ice or a classic layback spin (actually, never). And even when a skater manages to transcend the limits of the system, they get an inscrutable score (or an inexplicably low one, if something invisible to the audience, like losing a level on spin or slightly under-rotating a jump, occurs). It really didn't matter whether people considered it "sport" or not. The point is, people watched! It was enjoyable. It was fun to see what score the different judges gave. Everyone knew 5.9 was good and 5.1 not so good. Maybe some don't mind if skating becomes like curling, a sport no one watches (but still alive for those who want to participate). But curling was never a money-maker. Skating was. If there is a way to recapture that level of fan interest, the sport should try.

 

[Blades of Passion]

But what does the business side have to do with sports?

If there are no participants there is no sport. "If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

You don't KNOW that skating needs more artistry/performance to be relevant. Lots of sports are relevant; are they all artistic?

All other popular sports are a game. They invoke audience interest, due in large part to strategy and the unpredictability of what will happen next. They are considered fun to participate in. Skating does need artistry/performance or else it's just acrobatic speed skating. Gymnastics is more interesting to watch in comparison to that.

You equate the loss of television interest with the death of sports, but if television ceased to exist tomorrow, skating would still be alive for those who want to skate.

It's not just about television interest at all. It's about people actually wanting to WATCH skating. If television suddenly didn't exist, people would still seek out and travel to Basketball, Football, Baseball, Hockey, Soccer games in droves.

Ice skating wasn't ever taken completely seriously as a sport, and that has nothing to do with the ridiculous amount of points people get for falling. If you ask a Joe Blow why he doesn't take figure skating seriously, I doubt very much he'd tell you "because someone can fall and still score high." You aren't arguing, are you, that prior to IJS skating was taken, I dunno, seriously?

It was never taken completely seriously, but that's what CoP was supposed to help with. CoP has failed to succeed in doing so, because the ISU leadership don't understand the sport and the don't understand the scoring system. So now we've lost the audience, we've lost participation in the sport, and the sport has lost even more credibility. Perhaps skating will never be taken completely seriously as a sport by everyone, but who cares if it's as successful as it was in the 90's?

 

[Alba]

Perhaps skating will never be taken completely seriously as a sport by everyone, but who cares if it's as successful as it was in the 90's?

I for one would not care. If successful and popular mean that a skater would have to break the leg of another one, so Television/media and casual fans will be interested in this sport, let it die.