New choreographer for Sasha?

Soogar - Good job on your analysis and moreso on your information.

I never did get the full story on Sasha and Wagner. There were practice problems. hmmm. This makes more sense.

I always thought that Wagner got the brunt of Sasha's reluctance to go all out in the LP at Dortmund. The complaint was that Wagner's change in choreography caused the Dortmund LP problem. Nonsense. that same choreography produced the finest Swan Lake during the QR skate, and it was TT and Wagner.

It wasn't choreography that prevented her gold medal in Dortmund. It was a less than stellar skate (as opposed to the QR) and the sudden eminence of Shizuka. That's what happened. Over and Out on this choreography was the problem.

Now for the present time. If Sasha is happy with Nicks that is the best therapy for a skater. I'm with Sasha on this. As to R&J, it's fine, but I just don't think it was the best choice for an Oly year. As for Wagner, she has her work ethics as do all coaches. I would have no problem with a skater going to her for coaching.
Look at Heiss turning Ando into a beautiful lyrical skater.

Joe

Dreck

Dreck: Trash, especially inferior merchandise. What a cool word! I'll hafta remember that one!

As for extension: I don't like Sasha's extension. It's my personal opinion. I'm always hoping for something more like figure skating.

Linny

If this rumor of Sasha going to David Wilson as a new choreographer, maybe with all-new programs, then I say "GREAT!" It's about time. For all of her stretch & natural beauty, Sasha has always skated in her own world, almost ablivious to music...as a ROBOT. Maybe Wilson will make her musically sensitive & 'engage' her with the music (thus engaging all of us in the audience, finally).

Red Dog said:

RG- Your posts got me thinking. What can Cohen do RIGHT? I suppose if I didn't know anything about skating, I would seriously wonder why she is even a contender for gold. She supposedly has so many problems! She should be 10th!

If Cohen is this bad, then besides Irina, everyone else must be 10x worse.

That said, I seriously think that if she wants to win, she's got a lot of work to do. That's the basis of my personal criticism on Cohen.

What about Kwan? You bet if someone posted similar things on Kwan, everyone would be up in arms and swoop in for the kill like a bunch of vultures on the poor poster. JM(harsh)O.

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I’m not convinced that Sasha seriously believes she can beat Irina sans an Irina meltdown. Sasha probably knows the NJS as well as any ladies single skater and when a skater like Irina is winning by 20 points at least, I think Sasha is really fighting to get on the podium.

Yes, she says she wants to win AN Olympic gold medal, but maybe she means in 2010. I don’t know, but maybe.

Also, even though Cohen has only had one real competition this season—Campbell’s is cheese—I think the best thing that could have happened to her did. She got beat by Asada and barely eeked out 2nd over Shizza’s 3rd. I think that put some fire in her belly.

And if Sasha’s paying attention—and she better be—it’s not just Shizuka who is skating on Sasha’s heels. It’s also Miki Ando. On the following points comparing Sasha at TEB and Miki at COR, an asterisk denotes where Miki was ahead of Sasha on points.

SP TES Points:
TEB Sasha SP: 60.96
COR Miki SP: 60.76

SP PCS Points:
TEB Sasha SP: 31.30
COR Miki SP: 32.00*

LP TES Points:
TEB Sasha SP: 114.16
COR Miki SP: 111.64

LP PCS Points:
TEB Sasha LP: 56.20
COR Miki LP: 55.70

As you can see, Miki is within anywhere from almost 1 point ahead of Sasha (SP PCS) and the rest, where Miki is behind Sasha, it’s by less than a point to a maximum of less than 2.5 points behind (LP TES). Shizza and Miki are right in the same zone as Sasha. One fall or meltdown by any one of them and no podium.

Also, at least at ’05 Worlds, the judges didn’t always give PCS scores in accordance with TES scores. There’s hope!

And let’s compare Miki Ando, who just eight months ago at ’05 Worlds got these points relative to Sasha. SP and LP only. Asterisk denotes same as before:

’05 Worlds TES SP:
TES Sasha SP: 61.37 Rank 2
TES Miki SP: 59.30 Rank 7

’05 Worlds PCS SP:
PCS Sasha SP: 32.29
PCS Miki SP: 32.59*

’05 Worlds TES LP:
TES Sasha LP: 124.61 Rank 2
TES Miki LP: 106.18 Rank 7

’05 Worlds PCS LP:
PCS Sasha LP: 62.49
PCS Miki LP: 51.78

Clearly Miki’s meltdown in the LP is what did her in. But Carol Heiss Jenkins, at least with her ladies skaters, is great at putting the whole package together, which, IMO, is just what Miki needed. She’s slimmer; costume hair and music “cleaner” and more “put together”; and at least at COR skated two very clean programs.

Miki Ando and Heiss Jenkins, like Shizuka and Tarasova, underscore my point about how it’s not whether the coach is good or not that the skater is cooperative or not—always exceptions such as Chris Bowman and Tonya Harding—but usually it’s the “simpatico” between coach and skater.

These Olympics may scare Sasha into going to a coach for specific training while still keeping Nicks as her main coach. For example, finding a “basics” coach for work over the summer, ie, edges, how to use edging in stroking, jumps, speed, everything. I do take issue that Sasha is completely edge incompetent. Her change edge spins, spirals, and other moves shows me that she has strong edge control, but only on certain moves. Overall, as I’ve said before, she needs to get down into her knees and learn what skaters such as Katia Gordeeva and Yuka Sato have to spare: Every moment of skating based on edging. But I think she will have to be scared or beaten into finding someone who can really teach her how.

Also my usual call for an off-ice trainer who has worked with other elite skaters. Sasha needs more muscle mass, just about four pounds, but not before these Os—maybe two by February. Muscle strength and mass can be built very quickly with the right techniques.

So stay with Nicks and work with specialty coaches.

Rgirl

Word count w/o quote: 663. Could surely be at least 150-200 words shorter if I let a day go by and then edited. But then, we all put up with each other’s pecidillos. But I do try.

Frau Muller said:

If this rumor of Sasha going to David Wilson as a new choreographer, maybe with all-new programs, then I say "GREAT!" It's about time. For all of her stretch & natural beauty, Sasha has always skated in her own world, almost ablivious to music...as a ROBOT. Maybe Wilson will make her musically sensitive & 'engage' her with the music (thus engaging all of us in the audience, finally).

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While I am not against Sasha going to David Wilson to revamp her programs, I do think it could be a mistake to go back to the drawing board entirely. I actually like R&J when I saw it from TEB. That said, just about every skater out there could probably benefit from Wilson's seemingly uncanny ability to weave elements together into a whole package.

I must entirely disagree with you, Frau Muller, on your contention that Sasha skates like a robot and does not engage her music. I think one of her biggest strengths, in fact, is her amazing ability to express the music, not just through cheesy emoting, but through the movement of her entire body. I've always gotten the sense she feels the music better than almost any other skater out there. From the first time I saw her I was struck by her dance sensibility - and I'm not just talking about her flexibility and extension. Could just be difference of opinion, I guess, but that's my two cents.

I don't get that at all, rain. I admire her stretched positions & pointed feet but I keep waiting for a sense of musicality. Just my opinion, just like you have yours.

Thanks for the numbers, RG. It helps put things in perspective and adds credibility to the dissenters criticizing Cohen right now. Boy, she could even find herself back in 4th place again!

I wouldn't think for a MINUTE that Cohen's lying in the dark about where everyone else is scoring. (Same for everyone else.) In fact, if she doesn't know where she is relative to everyone else she's not as smart as we originally thought. The only thing she can do now is maximize her strengths to the system, skate lights out, and hope someone else above her botches their opportunity. The skaters control how they skate, but they don't control the ultimate outcome.

I get the feeling Cohen's packing up to leave. I think she's outta here by 2006. Maybe with an Olympic medal and another world medal (possibly Gold if Irina retires?), she'll just call it a career and move on to bigger, better things. Just my prediction, though. If she does stay beyond 06, I only see her sticking it out for one more season. Then again, has she really "peaked" at all during her career? Usually a skater at her level has at least that one breakout performance or victory in a major event.

In the end, though, even though the competitions actually took place, we are just comparing values on paper here. In reality, skaters are going to make mistakes and there will be X-factors waiting to appear out of the blue.

Sasha isn't going to stay around after this Olympics. She's been battling too many injuries plus she really doesn't like to compete. She would be a wonderful show skater and would be very popular even w/out an OGM.

I believe in season 02 – 03 Morosov split away from Tarasova’s team, after he choreographed one or both of Cohen’s competitive programs. Back then GPF required 2 lps, I believe Tarasova asked Usova to choreograph R&J for Cohen as her second lp. Cohen used that lp for a cheesefest and did well. Cohen liked it, and Tarasova had considered switching Cohen’s lp from Rachmaninoff to R&J and see how that shaped up as a show down b/w Morosov choreography for Mk, and Usova’s choreography for Cohen. Somehow they abandoned that idea.

Actually the melody/ tune of Cohen’s program (Usova and current Morosov) is extracted from Johnny Matthis’ ditty A Time For Us. (the entire song last for less than 3 mins) Many people say it is Nino Rota’s R&J soundtrack. Yes and No. Anyway, in Johnny Matthis song A Time For us there are 2 themes.


Theme a

A time for us, some day there'll be
When chains are torn by courage born of a love that's free
A time when dreams so long denied can flourish
As we unveil the love we now must hide

Theme b
A time for us, at last to see
A life worthwhile for you and me

If you listen carefully to Cohen’s TEB lp, her entire 4 mins are constructed on various combination of theme a and b, specifically in the order of a,a,a,b, a, a, b, a, a . Usova's version is also a combination of themes a and b. I have no time to look up how the themes a and b were repeated and arranged in Usova'sprogram. So I don’t understand what some posters were talking about when they said in Usova’s version the music cut is better. IIRC the orchestration, instrumentation from Usova’s version is different from the Morosov version. There is more variation of instrument chosen throughout the themes a and b in the Morosov version. IMHO, it is difficult to make a simple 2 min ditty into a 4 min musically interesting program. (Usually choreographers have a different challenge of e.g. condensing a 5 hr opera Tristan und Isolde into a 4 min program. ) In the Morosov version the variatiion of instrumentation IMO did not make the repetitive themes a, and b that much more interesting. I know Ravel’s entire Bolero is one giant show off in orchestration exercise based on one repetitive theme, but whoever orchestrated A Time for Us is not exactly Ravel, or Gustav Mahler, therefore the variation of instrumentation does not achieve the goal of variation of timbre.

IMO, this music choice fits Cohen well, it serves as background to her skating, and she seems to be comfortable with this approach. IMO, she can play Juliet calling Romeo where art thou, or Cleopetra calling for Mark Anthony with this piece of background music. Her fans love it, they see Sasha in this program, and that keep them happy

Off topic to Nino Rota’s ballad What is a youth from original R&J sound track( the entire song is about 2 and a half mins)

Theme a (has the same tune as Johnny Matthis’ theme a from A Time For Us)
What is a youth. Impetuous fire
What is a maid? Ice and desire.
The world wags on.
Theme a ( same as Johnny Matthis’ ditty}
A rose will bloom
It then will fade
So does a youth.
So do-o-o-oes the fairest maid.

Theme B ( very different tune from Johnny Matthis A Time For Us theme b)
Comes a time when one sweet smile
Has its season for a while...Then love's in love with me.
Some they think only to marry, Others will tease and tarry,
Mine is the very best parry. Cupid he rules us all.
Caper the cape, but sing me the song,
Death will come soon to hush us along.
Sweeter than honey and bitter as gall.
Love is a task and it never will pall.
Sweeter than honey...and bitter as gall
Cupid he rules us all

Theme B here has more development, and is actually musically more interesting. IMO if Cohen loves R&J so much, it maybe better for her to use the original sound track What is a Youth for her sp, and dump Dark Eyes which is again very repetitive, IMO the Russian Gypsy version of Row Row your boat.

Further off topic, Irina's sp is very repetitive too, it is an endless repetition of Thomas of Chelano's Dies Irae theme, and with some aweful orchestration to boot. I am sure Thomas of Chelano will turn over in his grave clapping bravo!!

I agree with Soogar that Cohen it is better for Cohen to be a show/ pro skater. I think she is a sure bet for olys silver, and if Irina retires after Olys, Cohen will win world gold. I think Cohen fans should thank the skating gods that Mao is not allowed to compete in olys and worlds 06.

soogar said:

Sasha isn't going to stay around after this Olympics. She's been battling too many injuries plus she really doesn't like to compete. She would be a wonderful show skater and would be very popular even w/out an OGM.

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Soogar- Usually I agree with you, but...who told you Cohen doesn't like to compete? Did she tell you personally? I think it's far-fetched to make such a statement without any proof.

But I agree with the rest of your statement. People already like her for her skating. Forget winning any titles. Plus she's got the looks to be popular.

Mathman said:

I think she could benefit from a better music cut and more varied choreography right at the end of her program, the last 15 seconds or so.

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I have to agree with you. After she does the russian split things kind of go down hill. I think there should be a better music cut at the end.

dancindiva

I agree that not having secure/strong edges is costing Sasha in the jump area, particularly. But just to see if she does in fact use her edges during her spiral sequence, I went back and replayed her most recent performance. She does change edges and she maintains her edge for a reasonable period of time. Someone complained that she goes from an edge to the flat and stays there. Well, I won't argue that point because she does go to the flat edge and ultimately stays there. I strongly suspect that the truth about Sasha's basic skating skills lies somewhere between those that love to rip her apart and the uber fan (as some people call her true believers). Sasha could not get as far as she has gotten without having some fairly decent skills. Take a look at Mao's spiral sequence and look how wobbly her edges were. I am not a Sasha uber fan. I want Michelle Kwan, the greatest skater of all time (hows that for an uber fan comment) to win the OGM. But I am a realist too. I know that isn't likely at this point unfortunately. But I do appreciate very much what Sasha puts out there on the ice. Would I love to see a combination of Michelle and Sasha or Irina and Sasha? You bet, but it probably isn't going to happen in my lifetime.

Red Dog said:

Forget winning any titles.

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Your advise for Cohen or her fans?? Obviously many Cohen fans can't even get over her silver at TEB. LOL, will Mao ever be forgiven for out skating Cohen overall at TEB?

Plus she's got the looks to be popular.

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Ice skating is sport or not a sport, is it just a beauty pagent on ice??

Red Dog said:

Soogar- Usually I agree with you, but...who told you Cohen doesn't like to compete? Did she tell you personally? I think it's far-fetched to make such a statement without any proof.

But I agree with the rest of your statement. People already like her for her skating. Forget winning any titles. Plus she's got the looks to be popular.

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Well I really don't need to be told that Sasha doesn't like to compete; you can see it for yourself on the ice. She's tense and she's frustrated. I admit that under Nicks she's much more relaxed on the ice because I suspect TT and Robin made her more into a ball of nerves. However watch her in a show and her face lights up. She loves to perform exhibition routines and not worry about jumps and basks in the applause.

Contrast that with Michelle and Irina. I suspect Irina loves to compete more than Michelle, but Michelle enjoys competition because she likes the adrenaline and she's good at it. Sasha isn't a bad competitor either but she hasn't won as much as Michelle and to deal with the same questions over and over again has to be frustrating for her.

Though maybe a Nats victory might change Sasha's tune.

Addressing a different area (I think Kyla's post): I've always argued that Sasha has great edges for the positions she attempts on her spirals. No skater can achieve those positions and hold deep edges (not even Shiz). I also think Sasha has great edge control on her spins as well. Though those are the things that Sasha likes to work on most. The crossovers need a lot of work and under Robin she was working on them because they were looking much better.

Finally a thread, critical or complimentary of SC without comparisons to Michelle.

gezando said:

Your advise for Cohen or her fans??

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Her fans. Cohen herself wants that title. She's just got to skate like she wants one.

Obviously many Cohen fans can't even get over her silver at TEB. LOL, will Mao ever be forgiven for out skating Cohen overall at TEB?

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We know Asada is the best. We don't need to constantly hear about how she beat Cohen, because it happened. Besides, it's not MAO's fault she was placed ahead of Cohen- the dissenters need to direct their venom at the JUDGES.

Ice skating is sport or not a sport, is it just a beauty pagent on ice??

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Although it has nothing to do with the comment I just said, I suppose it has a little of both mixed in.

orchid said:

Finally a thread, critical or complimentary of SC without comparisons to Michelle.

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Well, with soogar's last post, that rule was broken

Red Dog said:

We know Asada is the best. We don't need to constantly hear about how she beat Cohen, because it happened. Besides, it's not MAO's fault she was placed ahead of Cohen- the dissenters need to direct their venom at the JUDGES.

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Mao. IMO is not the best. IMO Irina is the best bet to win olys gold, and world gold if she stays for world 07. I don't know whether it is chicken or eggs, as long as Cohen fans cry WUZ robbed, Mao is just a twinkie without the cream filling, Mao isn't soup yet, then I think why Cohen is more sauce than meat IMO is fair for follow up talk.

gezando said:

Mao. IMO is not the best. IMO Irina is the best bet to win olys gold, and world gold if she stays for world 07.

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ITA.

I don't know whether it is chicken or eggs, as long as Cohen fans cry WUZ robbed,

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IT'S NOT JUST COHEN FANS. A lot of the non-Cohen crowd was scratching their heads as well.

Mao is just a twinkie without the cream filling, Mao isn't soup yet, then I think why Cohen is more sauce than meat IMO is fair ror discussion

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No clue what that means.

Though maybe a Nats victory might change Sasha's tune.

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Not saying this is a prediction, but...with all the people thinking Cohen will take the nats title by storm- I think we're in for a little surprise.

Red Dog said:

No clue what that means.

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Some posters have been saying that Mao is not soup yet, just ingredients. IMO no skater is perfect, but judges do have to apply the ISU rules to make a decision, therefore the winner of any competition does not need to be perfect, or even soup, s/he just need outskate the rest of the field. Some poster may think Mao is a twinkie w/o the creme filling. IMO Cohen is more sauce than meat. Referring to Dancindiva #58, and Vash #60, Linny #62, Frau M #63 and overall judges deduction on Cohen's TES scores, Cohen has tech issues e.g. her jump technique. IMO solid technique is like solid meat to a dish. Cohen's strength is her amplitude, and she looks pretthy on ice. I think that is more like the sauce part of a dish. So overall, IMO, Cohen is more sauce than meat. Of course IMO skaters like Irina, and dare I say Mao, who have solid basics, and skating skills are like prme choice steaks, and they don't hide behind sauce, just some salt and pepper will do.

Non Cohen fans may scratch their heads initially, but after examining the protocols, many do come with an understanding.