Michelle

Taan · Dec 12, 2005

it is apparent seeing michelle today, that after months of mystery and speculation -

that michelle is mere shadow of her former self.

it is best that she retires now, before she tarnishes her legacy, her best elegible days are behind her.

quite frankly, michelle kwan, sadly, is OVER

Rgirl · Dec 12, 2005

OllieBee said:
I guess being an infrequent carouser on the figure skating message boards, I'm not an experienced enough poster to "get" what the big deal is. I , came today only because of the Marshall's comp, and can count on one hand the number of times I've posted other than today.

I supppose it's sometimes hard to discern "intent" by words on a screen. But being insulting was the furthest thing from my mind. That said, this honestly seems to me like much ado about nothing. There are many who obviously take the coments and opinions expressed FAR MORE SERIOUSLY than I do.That said. I shall go back into my lurking mode. I don't want to get caught up in verbal tit for tats defending some presumed malicious intent that I never had to start with.

Thanks for your perspective.

Thanks for the Thanks, OllieBee, but please don't go back to lurking. For better or worse, it really doesn't matter what the poster's intent was in saying something. I got jumped on big time for what I intended to be a compliment to Michelle once.

Anyway, Doggygirl and I thought "Sasha's usual Sashasplat" was uncalled for, but Mzheng thought it was just fine. There are reasons why certain Michelle fans will every once in a while get into it with someone who is a fan of both skaters. But that's another thread.

The point is, IMO, this time all Doggygirl said that your saying "Sasha's usual Sashasplats" was "uncalled for." I agreed with DG. Big deal. You say what you said was no big deal and that you never meant to insult Sasha. Mzheng agreed with you. It's an historic merry-go-round that used to include Tara and still includes Irina. But that's for another thread.

Hope you stay. Say whatever you want about Sasha. Believe me, as long as you're a Michelle fan, most people here will agree with you.

Rgirl

jesslily · Dec 12, 2005

Michelle's injury really affected her skating ability yesterday. But if Michelle did not show up in Boston, or even won't show up at nationals, can someone else convincingly get the 2nd and 3 spots, and get good marks at Olympics? At NHK short, Kimmie did skated clean. To land jumps, her in-betweens really suffered. Alissa still can not land all the jumps when it counts. The 3loop she did yesterday from taking off to rotation did not show that she has mastered that jump solid. I feel USFS still needs Michelle, and she wishes, and maybe knows that she will be 100% ready by nationals, if not, by Olympics.

Skate Sandee · Dec 12, 2005

Rgirl said:
Anyway, Doggygirl and I thought "Sasha's usual Sashasplat" was uncalled for, but Mzheng thought it was just fine. There are reasons why certain Michelle fans will every once in a while get into it with someone who is a fan of both skaters. But that's another thread.

The point is, IMO, this time all Doggygirl said that your saying "Sasha's usual Sashasplats" was "uncalled for." I agreed with DG. Big deal. You say what you said was no big deal and that you never meant to insult Sasha. Mzheng agreed with you. It's an historic merry-go-round that used to include Tara and still includes Irina. But that's for another thread.

Rgirl

I'm confused why it's OK to see posts that read MK is a "shadow of her former self", "no way in hell can win at Nationals", "she's over", but not OK for another skater to reference Sasha's splats. Both are factual to some extent.

At the Marshalls event, based on what we all saw, MK was IN FACT a shadow of her former self and likely doesn't have a chance in hell of winning Nationals. (Saying she's over is a prediction based on nothing factual, so we'll leave that one alone). These are facts based on a comparison of her Marshall's performance vs. past performances. As an MK fan, I was not at all offended by these comments because - while I don't enjoy seeing them - I acknowledge the truth of the remarks based on the evidence before me.

It is also a FACT, that at Nationals, Sasha traditionally falls in one part of the competition - usually the LP. In at least two occasions, the title was her for the taking and her falls prevented her from winning.

In either case, posters are making remarks based on the evidence before them. So what's the issue? Is it the term Sasha splat that was offensive? Would it have been more palatable if written as "Sasha's falls at Nationals"? Do either one negate the facts?

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 12, 2005

OllieBee said:
I have rarely posted here, and this kind of silliness is the reason why. I meant absolutely no insult to Sasha in my post. It wasn't even a distant thought to "insult" her. The REALITY is, that at the last few Nationals that I've watched, she did not skate a two clean programs without at least one fall/stumble/bobble. On many occastions I've felt that she CLEARLY outskated Kwan, or other competitors, but a fall, or stumble was the difference in her winning. Though a Kwan fan, I actually believe that Sasha has FAR superior artistry and flexibility. That said, I will cease her to utilize any more of my valuable time responding to the petty and superficial.

Ollie Bee - First, let me welcome you to Golden Skate. If you read posts here on a regular basis you will learn that no matter how objective a poster is, who their favorite is, becomes more and more obvious after a while, and they will send out an immediate retort if they perceive you to be 'nasty' about their favorite. Being nasty to other skaters apparently is ok.

There have been many posts about Cohen as a splashadora; having a splashfest; or just plain Splasha. You did not say anything original. However, we are in the Olympic season and people are edgy. I, personally, think such name calling is in bad taste, but it is not illegal. Still, a little bit of rewording in future cases would handle the matter. Just be careful of anything excessive.

I hope you continue to post at Golden Skate. We do try to keep it civil but seasonal flareups do occur on Non Favorite Forums.

Joe

euterpe · Dec 12, 2005

Sasha did have a fall at the end of her R&J program, on her spin. She tried to cover it up by pretending it was Juliet dying, but no, it was a fall.

Bourne/Kraatz tried the same thing at SLC and it didn't work there, either.

kyla2 · Dec 12, 2005

I Understand

I understand why everyone is trying to be so optimistic but I can't forget what I saw and I saw someone who is hurting and struggling. I just don't think it is a matter of practicing more and getting back into shape. She has something significantly wrong that is going to take some time to heal. I am not going to expect anything one way or the other from her. She will do the best she can.

nymkfan51 · Dec 12, 2005

kyla2 said:
I understand why everyone is trying to be so optimistic but I can't forget what I saw and I saw someone who is hurting and struggling. I just don't think it is a matter of practicing more and getting back into shape. She has something significantly wrong that is going to take some time to heal. I am not going to expect anything one way or the other from her. She will do the best she can.

I agree kyla, that this is a very significant injury she is dealing with ... I'm just not sure that it's one she can't make it through the rest of the season with. Only she can make that decision. In the meantime though ... I want to be as optimistic and supportive as I can be for her. She will need the love and prayers of everyone right now.

And frankly ... even if she couldn't land one jump, I would still love to see her come to Nats and just do whatever she could. I think she deserves the love and the reception that her fans would give her. Could we give any less to someone who has given so much to us?

Doggygirl · Dec 12, 2005

OllieBee said:
I have rarely posted here, and this kind of silliness is the reason why. I meant absolutely no insult to Sasha in my post. It wasn't even a distant thought to "insult" her. The REALITY is, that at the last few Nationals that I've watched, she did not skate a two clean programs without at least one fall/stumble/bobble. On many occastions I've felt that she CLEARLY outskated Kwan, or other competitors, but a fall, or stumble was the difference in her winning. Though a Kwan fan, I actually believe that Sasha has FAR superior artistry and flexibility. That said, I will cease her to utilize any more of my valuable time responding to the petty and superficial.

Hi OllieBee. My apologies for "jumping" on you. As RGirl and others have mentioned, I hope my comment does not drive you away from posting.

While I'm sure I'm as guilty as the next person of using some of these "names" that become common for the skaters, I'm trying harder these days to avoid that practice because it doesn't accomplish anything positive in the interest of lively debate.

Yes, the nick name Sashasplat has a basis in fact based on Sasha's consistent inconsistency in skating totally clean programs. Pointing out Sasha's inconsistency is different in the context of discussion than "Sashasplat."

Since this thread is about Michelle, I will give an MK example just to present a different example. Fact: MK did not perform a 3 Loop last season (or at least not at Worlds). But if I refer to Michelle as something like "Kwanloopless" that might be considered by some as insulting towards Michelle. Yes, it has a root in fact somewhere, but it's an insulting way (IMO) of stating that fact. And IMO just doesn't lead to productive discussion. I could list many other examples but hopefully this is enough to make the point.

Just wanted to clarify my point of view.

DG

SailorGalaxia518 · Dec 12, 2005

I don't know why everyone is writing Michelle off "The Queen of U.S. Figure Skating"

I think that she DOES have a snowballs chance of doing well at the nationals and the Olympics

Just give her time to get her jumps back together and she will do well

Frau Muller · Dec 12, 2005

Wow, yesterday was embarrassing for Michelle. Unless something miraculous happens in the next three weeks, I don't think that Michelle's going to be earning her record 10th US Sr Ladies title in 2006 but will remain tied with Maribel Vinson-Owen with 9 wins apiece. If she's at Nationals, the judges will feel compelled to squeeze her onto the team by hook or crook, even if all she does is a waltz jump....NBC will do whatever it takes to ensure Michelle being on the Olympics team, for the rating$$$....maybe rack-up record-setting high presentation scores? Sad.

Michelle WILL be in Turin, by hook or crook. That means that at least one gal, who will skate magnificently (Alissa, Kimmie, BeBe, unknown skater???) will remain home.

R.D. · Dec 12, 2005

SailorGalaxia518 said:
I don't know why everyone is writing Michelle off "The Queen of U.S. Figure Skating"

I think that she DOES have a snowballs chance of doing well at the nationals and the Olympics

Just give her time to get her jumps back together and she will do well

I'm with you.

It may seem unlikely, but personally, I wouldn't come unprepared if I were any of her competitors. She can't not win unless she is outskated by someone else.

dlkksk8fan · Dec 12, 2005

It caused me much pain to watch Michelle skate. Yes she has heart, but her skating was not up to a level of being competitive with the top skaters. I don't understand why she is competing. It just isn't there and with an injury why risk more injury when there is nothing to try for? I don't think she will be on the podium for Nationals. I would hope that she pulls out of nationals, because with the way she skated she is not going to the Olympics.

Michelle has brought us great pleasure and is an icon of figure skating, but the time has come to hang up the competitive skates.

R.D. · Dec 12, 2005

I think saying she won't be on the Nats podium is stretching things a little. Now, she may very well be 2nd behind Cohen, but besides maybe Alissa on her best day, I can't imagine anyone else beating even a mediocre Kwan. JMO.

ETA: Maybe the doom and gloom MIGHT be justified in that if Kwan struggles with these few jumps, then how is she going to be able to do 6-7 in a competitive program. But I get the feeling that Kwan herself has a positive outlook, so I don't think all is lost for her fans. (I think she would know if she was in serious trouble.) Think- a non-fan more optimistic about Kwan than her own fans! :rofl:

Kwanford Wife · Dec 12, 2005

Hmmm.... this is a very interesting thread. No, Michelle wasn't at comp level... which we all knew when her participation was announced. We knew that her jumps weren't solid. We also knew that this was more of an opportunity to get in front of a crowd, probably a piece in her overall recovery process ~ the mental piece, so to speak... But some of the comments I'm reading today are astounding...

We have those who've been adament in their opinion that Kwan is an example of all that is wrong with US skating posting that this show will have no bearing on her ability to not just medal at Nationals but to win.

We have the "I'm a die hard fan, but..." faction who are calling for her retirement now because she's such an embarrasement who's "over."

We also have generally fair-minded posters attacking each other because another skater was brought into the conversation...

Wow, this is better than All My Children...

Jokes aside, I don't know what to think of Kwan's performance yesterday... You could tell she's not totally healed, but I didn't expect her to be... Further, I've had the opportunity to check that short out again, and there are truly good & bad elements there... Retire? I don't think so. Continue to work & train? Absolutely. But don't think that yesterday's performances mean an end to "The Michelle Kwan Show" that is US Nationals... A lot can happen in a month.

kyla2 · Dec 12, 2005

Nymkfan51

I totally agree with what you said. I literally have tears in my eyes right now. I don't want to see Michelle suffer physically or emotionally. I hated to see her subjected to the comments from the "judges." I just don't want her subjected to any crap from anyone because she may not be able to skate well this season. Part of me really wants her to pull out Nymkfan51. But she is a fighter and I know she is going to keep on trying to compete unless she simply can't do it. She has given this sport so much and I don't want people to remember her this way. I am hoping for a miracle.

Kwanford Wife · Dec 12, 2005

kyla2 said:
I totally agree with what you said. I literally have tears in my eyes right now. I don't want to see Michelle suffer physically or emotionally. I hated to see her subjected to the comments from the "judges." I just don't want her subjected to any crap from anyone because she may not be able to skate well this season. Part of me really wants her to pull out Nymkfan51. But she is a fighter and I know she is going to keep on trying to compete unless she simply can't do it. She has given this sport so much and I don't want people to remember her this way. I am hoping for a miracle.

Are you seriously serious?!?

I don't mean to be rude, but to encourage an elite athlete to quit because you've decided that she's had enough is just a bit much... fan or not. Its a sport, not a kiddy beauty pagent! I'm sure Kwan knows that she's injured and didn't skate well yesterday. I'm sure she also knows that she could be a quitter and give up or she could keep skating & let the chips fall where they may...

As for the judges... so what? I'm sure both Kwan & Cohen have heard worse... I get the commentary on Kwan's conditioning. I get the commentary on Sasha's skate yesterday. What I don't get is this faux hand wringing & cries of "Why Michelle? WHY???" Please.

This is her battle, not ours & its asinine to assume that we know better than she does... :sheesh:

nymkfan51 · Dec 12, 2005

Kwanford Wife ... with all due respect, what kyla is saying is simply out of concern for Michelle. Of course none of us can tell Michelle what to do ... but that doesn't mean we can't express our feelings. I think right now, those of us who love Michelle are a bit shaken. Not because she disappointed us (because she didn't), but because we all realize that her health and the rest of her life are more important than any figure skating competition.

Kwanford Wife · Dec 12, 2005

nymkfan51 said:
Kwanford Wife ... with all due respect, what kyla is saying is simply out of concern for Michelle. Of course none of us can tell Michelle what to do ... but that doesn't mean we can't express our feelings. I think right now, those of us who love Michelle are a bit shaken. Not because she disappointed us (because she didn't), but because we all realize that her health and the rest of her life are more important than any figure skating competition.

nymkfan51... But this is what I don't get... what is there to be shaken about? She's injured. But that's the gig. In my opinion, its disrespectful to elite athletes to say that they should quit because we, the fans, are afraid they might not win... When winning is everything, quitting is not an option. If we want skating to be treated like a sport, then the fans need to understand the basics. Sometimes you get hurt, sick, tired, etc... But if you choose to compete, then you set yourself up for failure or success... Respect that & root for her or root for someone else... That's just the way it is... No one, with the exception of Kwan, her family, friends, and probably Irinia (their's is personal) wants Kwan to be up & 100% come Turin
more than me... but I also want her healthy for life after skating, but ya know what? Its her decision & I respect that. Just like I respect Tara's choice & Irina's choice. Even if I was all WTF??? yesterday...

Understand that Kwan, the athlete, wouldn't have shown up yesterday if she wasn't confident that she could get back to top levels in time for Nationals & the Olympics.

I'm sorry, but all this angst is hard to take...

thisthingcalledlove · Dec 12, 2005

Kwanford Wife said:
But don't think that yesterday's performances mean an end to "The Michelle Kwan Show" that is US Nationals... A lot can happen in a month.

Sarah Hughes brought her mojo with her a month after a not-so-good performance at US Nationals. Now, Sarah wasn't injured, but they totally rechoreographed the end of her program.

At any rate, wasn't Michelle the only one who tried a combination jump (triple lutz combo no less) in the first program?

Michelle

Taan

Rgirl

jesslily

Skate Sandee

Joesitz (RIP)

euterpe

kyla2

nymkfan51

Doggygirl

SailorGalaxia518

Frau Muller

R.D.

dlkksk8fan

R.D.

Kwanford Wife

kyla2

Kwanford Wife

nymkfan51

Kwanford Wife

thisthingcalledlove

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