Ladies FS

Red Dog said:

I agree with the second and third comments, BTW. ALL the competitors, including Irina, should count their lucky stars IMO. But darn, if there was ONE skater that could beat Irina, it would have been Mao. I probably would have been rooting for her to beat Irina. Oh well.

Maybe some of the other Japanese skaters could do it...Shizuka, perhaps? Or Miki Ando? (The way she's been performing recently, though, it's rather doubtful )

For the Americans: Kwan? She's got too little time to shape up after her injury, and I think she might be the sentimental fav. Kimmie? No way. Ditto for Alissa if she makes the team over Meissner.

All the others are simply headcases- warm one day, cold the next. (Think Kostner, Suguri)

So there's practically NOBODY left. Even after this defeat, I still think Irina's got a very high chance at the OGM. If anything this loss will make her even more hungry for it...

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If Arakawa had made the GP final, I probably would have tipped her as the biggest remaining threat, especially if she challenged Slutskaya and Asada at the GP final. I absolutely cannot imagine a skater who did not even reach the GP final winning the Olympics though, a medal maybe, but gold after not even making the 6-woman GP final? I could never see that happening.

slutskayafan21 said:

If Arakawa had made the GP final, I probably would have tipped her as the biggest remaining threat, especially if she challenged Slutskaya and Asada at the GP final. I absolutely cannot imagine a skater who did not even reach the GP final winning the Olympics though, a medal maybe, but gold after not even making the 6-woman GP final? I could never see that happening.

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I'm not so sure I'd agree with this...

The six ladies who made the GPF don't really represent the final six placements / results at the games unless something REALLY strange happened, so is it fair to assume that if you weren't apart of this group of elite ladies, then you might as well stay home? Highly doubtful... Remove Mao from the lineup & you could even make a case for asking for a refund on your ticket price...

As far as Irina's name being engraved, I so hope her fans don't awaken the skate gods with boasting about what they see happening & its "impossible" for her to lose...

Sincere congrats to Mao for winning. I was able to just sneak in under the deadline and watch the videos online. Here's what I think:

First of all, Ant, no need to duck and run from me since ITA with you, ie:

Ant said:

Or perhaps if you're being cynical, the judges gave her lower PCS marks in the GPF on the basis that it was ok for Asada to beat her since she won't be at the Olympics. If someone cries foul at Irina's PCS marks at the Olympics then they can always point to eh GPF where she was marked accurately and say of course we've not been inflating her marks all season.

Ant, ducking and running!

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The only thing is I don't think you have to be cynical. I think the judges are oxytocin overloaded on Mao, and why not? She's cute. She's perky. She's a phenomenal jumper. She moves well enough. She's beautiful. The judges are in love with her and either forgiving the wobbles and weaknesses or just don't see them the way we don't see the problems in a lover's personality and body during those first few years of hormone-flooded "love."

The same thing has happened with other young big splash skaters, Miki Ando for one, Sasha Cohen for another, even Michelle. Michelle, for example, won '96 Worlds over Chen Lu who arguably had a better program but, IIRC, one less triple. But Michelle's real coup was that she was a "new" Michelle, full of everything I cited for Mao for her time. But when '97 came around and the effect of the oxytocin had worn off (oxytocin is usually known for inducing labor, but it is also the main hormone that causes us to be idiotically in love for about two years before we start to see the "real" person we thought we couldn't live without).

I don't mean to take anything away from Asada, but IMO, both she and Irina have benifitted this season from being either new and exciting (Mao) or reborn and great (Irina). IMO, if this were Asada's second season on the senior circuit after having won either gold or silver at '05 Worlds, the judges would be much harder on her scoring. The glow around her that hides her technical and presentational weaknesses would be gone and the judges would be in the phase of, "Oh, I hadn't noticed that before."

I think Asada has the potential to be the greatest living ladies skater (hey, Joe? what happened to "Always the Mets; always Michelle"?), but IMO she has a long way to go. She and her coach are wisely working her natural and genuine cute qualities for all their worth, which in combination with a strong jumper is Nadia Comenic at 14 all over again. Whether she will remain injury-free long enough to realize her technical potential over a period of years is a big question, as is whether she will be able to grow into a mature stylist of depth and quality. That's always the question with prodigies.

Joe mentioned that she wouldn't crack at the Olympics this season because she's still too young. ITA. The question is, as she does mature, will she outgrow her natural childlike love of skating? When she realizes what's at stake, will she be able to maintain her "uncrackable" presence in doing jumps?

As I said, I don't want to take a thing away from Asada for what she is and the way the judges responded to her, but no way am I ready to crown her future, just as I wouldn't crown any skater's future. I would, of course, love to see Asada grow into everything she has the potential to be--healthy, uninjured, happy, loving her sport. But there are too many variables I've seen tear down too many prodigies like Asada in too many sports and the arts for me to be able to start jumping up and down saying the skating messiah is here.

It's actually too bad for Asada. Midori Ito was in the same position after the '88 Olympics. When '92 came around and she fell on her attempted 3Axel in her SP, she apologized to the entire country of Japan. I remember thinking then that she had all the makings of someone who would develop an eating disorder, but when she grew so much as a professional, I thought she had eluded those demons. I'm so heartbroken I was wrong.

None of us can predict the future. If some people want to say, "Asada is now and will be the greatest skater of all time" so that if she wins the 2010 OGM with a beautiful competition they can say, "I told you so!" then fine, you told us so. For me, it's much more exciting to see a Paul Wylie, written off as a choker, become one of the finest technical and dramatic skaters ever because of his creative growth in the pro ranks. Or Kurt Browning go from "blowing" two chances at what everyone felt was his right, an OGM, struggle through two or three awful seasons as a pro until he was able to reach deep down and find the will and the way to become one of the most memorable and beloved skaters of the millenial period. Same with a number of other pro skaters from that period, which is where I think the ISU has really hurt skating.

By Speedy's anger at the pros taking money and interest away from eligible skating, he wrecked the balance between eligibles and pros that had been working well for skating for years. The pros finally had COI to at least skate up to their best for one or two programs and SOI had reached its zenith in terms of quality of skaters, choreography, and production. Between Speedy doing away with pro only competitions and mistakes made within the pro ranks, everything focused on eligible skating. That was fine for a while, but the technical demands have long since consumed the very skaters we love to watch most by injuring them and for most people, watching the same programs every weekend just doesn't cut it. That's my way of agreeing with Mathman, although anybody whose read my posts over the years should know that I've always felt pro skating was important in keeping up the interest in eligible skating.

Last thing: About Irina's "sour grapes": Since 1996, I've watched Irina lose competitions she clearly should have won and respond with a cheerful congratulations to the winner. It was not until 2002 that I read about her comments on winning the silver medal. However, considering that prior to the Olympics, Irina was quoted in a Sports Illustrated article as saying, "Michelle and Sarah will be very strong" and what a tough competition it would be, I can't help but wonder if the Russian Federation didn't have something to do with encouraging Irina to complain since I'd never heard her complain before. In fact, it was Irina who had complimented her number one competitor who beat her purely due to the geographics of judging favoritism LONG before Irina's competitor ever complimented her.

As for the GPF "sour grapes," Irina said she didn't understand why her PCS were so low. I'd wonder too after seeing how she skated. That's the only thing that I could see that could have been construed as "sour grapes." Also, Irina is either 26 or 27 years old. In my experience, when you're in your late teens, early 20s, and if that's your personality, it's much more natural to say, "I'm just happy to skate well" blah blah. The older one gets, especially being involved in life or death situations, the "I'm just happy" becomes, IMO, something negative that indicates a low self esteem, which is the last thing an athlete needs. In my experience with athletes and dancers, the older they get, the more likely they are to respond to poor scores or a poor review with "negative" remarks, or what I would call honest and realistic. It's part of the complexity of growing up. You start caring less about whether or not everyone "likes" you and caring more about saying what you feel is the truth.

So for me, I don't see Irina's comments as "sour grapes" at all. "True grapes," yes. "Sour," no.

I just hope Irina plans in some rest time before the Olympics so that she truly can skate her best. I also hope that the Japanese Fed does not hold Shizuka Arakawa's non-placement in the GPF against her. She skated great at both her events but was up against Irina and Asada at one, and Irina and I'm not sure who else at another. Meanwhile, because Michelle and Sasha were injured, Elena Sokolova and Alissa Czisny skated against very weak competition. So all this why the "How can you expect someone who couldn't make the GPF to medal at the Olympics?" baloney is baloney. Anyone who keeps making such statements either didn't watch the GPS or doesn't remember who Sokolova and Czisny skated against.

As long as she's healthy, I say Irina is the greatest skater on the planet. She may have had an off event, but for one thing, she's been doing it for 10 years, except for her '98-'01 slump, and for another, whether or not you like her style, she is the epitome of power, strength, command of the ice, speed, jumps, spins, and athletic presentation. Asada's had three good events. Come back and talk to me in 2016 when Asada has skated as many events as Irina. BTW, if it were an uninjured Michelle in Irina's place, how much do people want to bet people would be up in arms over Asada's win?

Rgirl

Rgirl said:

Or Kurt Browning go from "blowing" two chances at what everyone felt was his right, an OGM, struggle through two or three awful seasons as a pro until he was able to reach deep down and find the will and the way to become one of the most memorable and beloved skaters of the millenial period.

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Browning had only one awful season as a pro - the 1994-95 pro season. The following pro season in 1995-96 he won the World Pro Championships, the Canadian Pro Championships, the Ultimate Four, and every event he entered except the Challenge of Champions were he was 4th(one bad event, still great year).

gkelly said:

If Slutskaya "dismissed" the event, so did Cohen. If Cohen just, say, put it in perspective within the season, then so did Slutskaya.

The only difference is that Slutskaya objected to the component marks she got from the judges, and Cohen commented on what she did wrong:

"I wasn’t proud of my performance today, there are quite a few things that I can do better, but it was a great learning experience for me. I was little bit late at the end, and I was trying to make up time, I rushed the jump a bit."

So you could argue that Slutskaya is putting the responsibility on others (judges) for her not winning and Cohen is taking the responsibility on herself.

But even that is a stretch. Really, we only know what they might be thinking from a few sentences. I'm sure they're also thinking lots of other things that didn't get voiced at the press conferences or didn't get passed along by the journalists.

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One thing that is missing from this analysis of the comments by the two skaters is that they are coming in at different points. This was the first GP event for Sasha this season, and she was mainly interested in getting feedback on her programs so that she can make the needed changes. She got the information she wanted. Her comment reflected that.

Irina came in, after winning 7+ consecutive ISU sanctioned events, and particularly the last two GP's which she won handily. From all accounts she had a pretty decent skate, although without a 3-3 combination. If her PCS scores were lower than what they had been in the past 2 competitions, I can understand why she would be confused by that. Her comment reflected that.

I don't see how you can judge either skater as taking the responsibility for herself or not taking it. They are not in similar situations, and you cannot compare their comments to determine who is 'better' as a person.

Vash