Cohen's beauty and polish not appreciated?

slutskayafan21 · Aug 10, 2006

Mathman said:
I applaud that point.

...Although... if Sasha had stopped to think about it in her disappointment, she might have held out reasonable hope for the bronze.

Meissner's highest ever free skate up to that point was 110.80 at 2005 NHK, and Shizuka's (leaving out the 2003 "practice season") was 114.88 at 2004 NHK. Fumie's highest was 117.22 at 2005 Four Continents, but Sasha was already 5 points ahead of Fumie after the short.

So, conceding the gold to Slutskaya, it would have taken an all-time personal best by any of the other three to beat Sasha's not-all-that-bad 116.63.

It is amazing Arakawa managed to post a new PB by a whopping 11 points in the long program while no attempting a triple-triple AND popping a triple to a double.

Kasey · Aug 10, 2006

Perhaps her failure to skate a clean competition at any of those events has more to do with her not winning a World or Olympic gold. I think there have been times (like this year's Worlds LP), when she has been overscored for what she's done on the ice and what she's put into the program. But I'm not a Sasha fan, so perhaps I'm being overly harsh.

Lonewolf · Aug 10, 2006

SeaniBu said:
Personally I call her "Silky Sasha." Even her fall at COI was graceful as far as falls go

I have often thought this myself, that when she falls or makes a mistake, they generally are graceful. I think the judges appreciate Sasha and her ability and her consistent placement on the podium shows that they do.

R.D. · Aug 10, 2006

I don't think Sasha is underappreciated, she just has trouble landing jumps, which hurts her scores.

Agreed. Most likely the best response to the topic question. Real nice skater to watch- sometimes- and it's just the consistency problems that, while for other skaters would keep them from becoming a top contender, keeps her from GOLD when she's already a "top contender". It has to suck being 2nd all the time if you want to win.

Ladskater · Aug 11, 2006

The judges and fans do appreciate her grace and beauty. Unfortunately, figure skating is also about jumping. It's not every skaters' cup of tea. Jumping comes naturally to some skaters and not to others. I hate it when a gifted skater - like Sasha has to focus on being a jumping bean to compete with the other jumping beans. I would rather watch her do what she does best. Sasha would have fit in the days of Karen Magnussen and Dorothy Hamill - the ladies only had to do doubles then. They presented their grace and elegence on the ice just as Sasha does. When they started having to do triples it took away from all the inbetween skating. I would rather see the ladies go back to doubles and concentrate more on the details. We could use more skaters like Sasha.

Zanzibar · Aug 11, 2006

I'll be surprised if Cohen ever competes again IF she completely takes this season off, but it's good she's keeping her options open.

She seems to really want to pursue an acting career, yet SOI would love to sign her for the season. Of course, approaching her as she's ending the final days of the grueling COI tour probably makes the idea of yet again touring in a few months not very palatable. She could join SOI as a special guest star, yet, then she's out of the group numbers and SOI can't really capitalize on advertising her as an integral part of the show.

And, of course, if she's going to capitalize via Hollywood on her Olympic silver medal, she can't waste time. Interesting, yet difficult, position Ms. Cohen is in.

R.D. · Aug 11, 2006

let Cohen do what Cohen wants. Here's one that could care less what she does.

Lanie · Aug 11, 2006

Sasha's grace, elegance, line etc--all the things that make her Sasha--are vastly appreciated and she is marked appropriately, though IMO not at 2005 Worlds but that is a whole 'nother story, as they say.

She just can't land them jumps!

In some recent email from SashaCohen.com it's mentioned 'on her quest towards next season' or something like that, thus making me think she IS going to go for Nats at least. I hope she never leaves skating completely, it would be rather sad, she who has been so special in the sport no matter her technical issues or lack of gold medals.

Jaana · Aug 11, 2006

I would say that Cohen is fully appreciated for her beautiful and exquisite skating by international judges. She just needs to perform her freeskate better than any other skater in that competition. Her performance does not necessarily need to be clean, that depends on how the other skaters are performing. The end result depends also on luck a lot.

R.D. · Aug 11, 2006

it would be rather sad, she who has been so special in the sport no matter her technical issues or lack of gold medals.

For a true Cohen fan, gold medals (or any medals for that matter) should be a non-issue. Do you really like to watch her skate? Those are what I consider the true Sasha fans. JMO

Of course even the fan who could care less about jumps would probably wish that she could pull it off one day, but it wouldn't be the be-all-end-all for them. The non-fair weather fans...they don't make off when it rains, they pull out an umbrella and stick it out.

Piel · Aug 11, 2006

If the judges had not appreciated her beauty and polish she would be mentioned and ranked with the likes of Vika, AP, Jenny, and Jennifer R. instead of up there with Kwan, Slutskaya, and Arakawa.

Lanie · Aug 11, 2006

Of course I like watching Sasha skate. It just makes me sad since she wants those gold medals so badly, she wants to skate clean so badly. I feel bad for her. Watching her skate in competition is always nerve-wracking. I get the same adrenaline highs from going on a roller-coaster.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 11, 2006

Regarding the beauty and polish of Sasha's skating, it is clear that there is agreeement with this forum's members that she is appreciated by judges and fans.

I certainly agree but I think that there are many other skaters with beauty and polish. Sasha is not the only one. Beauty and polish are most apparent in skaters who have been around for some time. Sasha has been around for some time. Would one say that Hamil does not have beauty and polish?

As to the Wow moves, doesn't one have to consider the point values of the elements. Which is more Wow? a beautiful change edge spiral or a 3lutz by 3toe?

And comparing PCS scores don't really get me. I would need to see 10 of 12 judges to have the same scores in order to believe that PCS scores are comparable. Also comparing scores from different competitions are out of the question for me. There is some validity in comparing Technical, imo.

Joe

Mathman · Aug 11, 2006

About the program component scores, actually, I do think something can be gleaned from them sometimes.

For instance, in Sasha's Olympic LP (a very problematic performance to score, because it had some fine skating along with some glaring errors), in Skating Skills 10 of the 12 judges gave Sasha 7.50/7.75, and in Transitions, 11 of the twelve did the same.

Comparing this to Sasha's LP at worlds (a lack-luster effort), still 9 out of twelve gave her 7.50/7.75 for skating skills, but in transitions the marks dropped to the 7.25/7.50 range in the opinions of the majority of the panel (7 out of 12) -- both a lower overall score than for the Olympics, plus, less agreement among the judges.

Considering that the judges are trying to take into account such criteria as "the skater establishes an invisible bond with the audience," I think this is overall pretty impressive agreement. (If anything, that's too much agreement for something that is supposed to involve aesthetic judgement.)

JMO.

MM

tully · Aug 11, 2006

Red Dog said:
For a true Cohen fan, gold medals (or any medals for that matter) should be a non-issue. Do you really like to watch her skate? Those are what I consider the true Sasha fans.

this is a great point-- why should it matter indeed. i'm a huge Alyssa fan , and she rarely even gets on the podium. i just enjoy her good looks, spins, spirals and other moves, and don't mind the jump problems. (you might say i've been "conditioned" by sasha :laugh:

)

Dee4707 · Aug 11, 2006

Red Dog said:
Yes. And some can accomplish that goal while others are still working on it.

Like who???

Red Dog said:
Not easy to do. The average top skater usually comes through at least once or twice, though.

Like who??

Dee

anniemg · Aug 11, 2006

I think that judges appreciate her 'beauty and polish' otherwise she wouldnt have gotten her silver at the Olympics for example. I understand the comment on other skaters getting high PC scores but it doesnt happen that often While Kimmie did not deserve those skyhigh scores at Worlds she rocked the rink and it was the skate of a lifetime. Judges are people and they are affected by that.I agree that she's more beautiful on ice than anyone else, but you oculd still find people who will say the opposite. I've heard comments like she's too 'wooden' or that she has a stiff back. It's so subjective.

I'm a Sasha Fan and I don't care if she falls. Of course I want her to win everything but when she doesnt I'm still grateful for watching her skate. I'd rather watch her fall all over the place than watch a skater that is not as pleasing to my eye as her. She'll always be my fave, golds or not. And I'd like to see her continue because I think that she has more to give. Not medals, but performances like the 2004 SP at worlds...But it's her decision.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 11, 2006

Mathman said:
About the program component scores, actually, I do think something can be gleaned from them sometimes.

For instance, in Sasha's Olympic LP (a very problematic performance to score, because it had some fine skating along with some glaring errors), in Skating Skills 10 of the 12 judges gave Sasha 7.50/7.75, and in Transitions, 11 of the twelve did the same.

This is my point. They agreed and leaves little room for argument except for one's personal taste.

Comparing this to Sasha's LP at worlds (a lack-luster effort), still 9 out of twelve gave her 7.50/7.75 for skating skills, but in transitions the marks dropped to the 7.25/7.50 range in the opinions of the majority of the panel (7 out of 12) -- both a lower overall score than for the Olympics, plus, less agreement among the judges.

9 out of 12 leans towards good scoring. Of course one could argue the reputation of a top tier skater (former 2 World silver medalist) played a role in subjective judging. A few of the judges, I would believe did not like the second half of the LP for skating skills should also be noted, imo.

Considering that the judges are trying to take into account such criteria as "the skater establishes an invisible bond with the audience," I think this is overall pretty impressive agreement. (If anything, that's too much agreement for something that is supposed to involve aesthetic judgement.)JMO.
MM

I think the operative word there is 'trying'. That is highly subjective and relates to show skating moreso than competitive skating. However, I do believe the roar of the crowd does influence the judges (which it should not}. Kimmie got the roar!!

Joe

SeaniBu · Aug 11, 2006

Mathman said:
Considering that the judges are trying to take into account such criteria as "the skater establishes an invisible bond with the audience," I think this is overall pretty impressive agreement. (If anything, that's too much agreement for something that is supposed to involve aesthetic judgement.)

JMO.

MM

:agree: And I don't think it is with an "Applaud-o-meter" either. Captivation is one of the aspects that is gaged - hopefully - during the entire program. I think Sasha makes everyone tense and apprehensive, and that "vibe" is felt by the judges as well. I think that is one reason the "invisible bond" is constant and "high" with SC. JMO. Fumie or Ira will give a emotion of "well I am comfortable this will be a good pro, and can relax and enjoy." More so than Sasha's, "OMG, I hope she can get this clean, will the rest of it be clean?" The heighten sense I believe plays with a judges mind on a subconscious level. JMO

Also says something for how much publicity a skater gets, how much hype there is surrounding them prior, will have an impact on that "bond."

nymkfan51 · Aug 11, 2006

I agree with MM ... they still haven't mastered the PCS yet. They basically mark pretty much across the board instead of taking each category on it's own. We've discussed that before here. They really need a separate set of judges just to score the PCS, IMO.

I think Sasha has been well compensated for the beauty in her skating. If she had ever skated two clean programs in a competition, she would have run away with it ... and that's goes for Torino as well.

And as far as Kimmie's scores at Worlds ... yes, they were probably a bit high ... but it was the same way with the 6.0 system. Someone who skated a clean 6/7 triple program saw their presentation marks go up as well.

Cohen's beauty and polish not appreciated?

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Kasey

Lonewolf

R.D.

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

Zanzibar

R.D.

Lanie

Jaana

R.D.

Piel

On Edge

Lanie

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

tully

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin

anniemg

Joesitz (RIP)

SeaniBu

nymkfan51

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