Cop question: What's worse, "popping" a jump or falling on a jump?

We have to understand a thing, skating is a subjective sport/art, and it will always be, regardless of the system of judging.

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You got it, down to a T actually. There's just no getting around it. As long as judges exist, it's subjective.

enlight78 said:

Does anyone know if the Goe's are given for the whole jump or different parts of the jump; like a good rotation vs a smooth flowing landing or the hight of the jump.

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For each element each judge gives one Grade of Execution score for the entire element as a whole. The rules for jumps say only that they are supposed to take into consideration "the height, length, technique and clean starting and landing."

If the skater does one part extra well, but is weak in another area, those pluses and minuses can cancel, so a judge might give out a 0 GOE total.

The guidelines for what constitutes an extra good effort seem to be pretty sparse. But there are very specific guidelines as to what kind of mistakes should result in negative GOEs. Here is the document that spells this out (scroll down to page three):

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-175231-192449-94938-0-file,00.pdf

MM

Mathman said:

For each element each judge gives one Grade of Execution score for the entire element as a whole. The rules say only that they are supposed to take into consideration "the height, length, technique and clean starting and landing."

If the skater does one part extra well, but is weak in another area, those pluses and minuses can cancel, so a judge might give out a 0 GOE total.

The guidelines for what constitutes an extra good effort seem to be pretty sparse. But there are very specific guidelines as to what kind of mistakes should result in negative GOEs. Here is the document that spells this out (scroll down to page three):

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-175231-192449-94938-0-file,00.pdf

MM

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Thanks mathman.

enlight78 said:

Does anyone know if the Goe's are giving for the whole jump or different parts of the jump; like a good rotation vs a smooth flowing landing or the hight of the jump.

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Four phases of each jump are taken into consideration: preparation, takeoff, flight, and landing.

To earn the base value, all phases must be completed satisfactorily.

To earn +1, at least three of the phases should be "good" (better than just satisfactory), or the jump should otherwise qualify for base value and have something else special about it, such as varied air position (e.g., arm overhead) or delayed rotation.

For +2, all phases need to be good or very good, and for +3 all phases including the preparation need to be superior.

If any phase is less than satisfactory, that should lead to reductions in the GOE. But if the jump qualifies for +1 by being good in 3 phases and/or by having a special enhancement, then a -1 for a minor problem in one phase could lead to a final GOE of 0 (base value).

The examples given of minor problems worth -1 reduction are

-touchdown with one foot or one hand;
-long entry phase (telegraphed);
-short change of edge in take-off of flip or lutz;
-weak landing (land on wrong edge or toe, etc.)

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mathman said:

There are specific guidelines for giving out negative GOEs. On the plus side, I don't know exactly what you have to do to get a +3 GOE. I don't think I have ever seen seen one, even by a single judge, and I have looked at literally thousands of these scores, LOL. For most elements a 0 GOE is quite an acceptible result and a +1 is a sweet bonus.

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There have been a few +3s given by individual judges. E.g., in the Torino short programs, Plyushenko got several for his circular step sequence and Cohen for her spiral sequence.

Getting almost all of the judges to give +3 to the same element so that the average would actually be +3 after high and low are dropped is extremely unlikely.

It's especially unlikely for difficult jumps, because even when the takeoff, air time, and landing are gorgeous, the set-up was usually pretty bland. Or when the jump comes from a difficult entry, often the air and/or landing positions are less than ideal even when satisfactory.

Also, with triple axels most skaters who do them skid the takeoff to some degree, so some minor skidding could be overlooked, but judges may well reserve that +3 for a jump with a clean takeoff edge as well as good speed, no telegraphing, great air position and great landing. A special enhancement on the approach, air position, or landing position would also help.

I do think that we should be seeing +2s a bit more often than we have at the elite levels, but +3s should be saved for something really special, sort of like a 6.0 under the old system, only one element at a time.

Thanks Gkelly.

SeaniBu said:

I totally agree. People will always question - well MK's 6.0? Yes that is true someone will always question.

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Actually, I did have a question about one of those FIFTY-SEVEN PERFECT 6.0S that Michelle won over the course of her career.

Mathman said:

Actually, I did have a question about one of those FIFTY-SEVEN PERFECT 6.0S that Michelle won over the course of her career.

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Oh man, laughing feels so good. I don't think she would even give herself that many (I meant across the board). Well I doubt she would give her self 1. But I would at least give at least 10 or more 6.0s to her (but the one she got I don't think she agreed with (across the board). That back scratch, how do you symbolize the tiger grow? ...? wow.
I fall... when I see that move form her.