- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
Eh...quarter turn vs. half turn entrance to the jump is just personal preference. Either way, you're gaining momentum easier with the Salchow than you do with the Flip.
~Z
The Lone Triple Loop Jump
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
Eh...quarter turn vs. half turn entrance to the jump is just personal preference. Either way, you're gaining momentum easier with the Salchow than you do with the Flip.
~Z
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I also understand that, although I have never read it officially but enough posters said they know it for a fact. With this in mind you start a salchow (or a loop) with a half turn on the ice, go airborne and circle the field 2-1/4 turns in the air before landing with a 1/4 more turn on the ice and your've completed 3 air turns by definition. That is what posters are saying. Is it not?
BTW. It's a law of physics - not the ISU - or GS posters - that the more speed one has going into a jump the easier the execution becomes. But the number of actual air turns are not considered relevant as per above. Is that correct?
(I'm not trying to be fascetious. This math is a learning experience for me.)
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
I don't think the first part is true. Too much speed and you can't control the rotations or landing properly.
For the second part, I'm actually not even sure what you're trying to say. Describe more. A Loop or Salchow is going to have a little less actual rotation in the air than a toepick jump, yes, if that's what you're getting at.
~Z
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
I found her Triple Flip to be rather excellent. Even though she didn't get much height, the rotations were absolutely perfect.
~Z
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Z- Quit putting words in my mouth. I said more speed not too much speed. There is a difference. Check out the speed of Emily before her 3Flip.
If you look at broad jumpers. They run like hell before leaping. It's easier to travel farther. Even a freshman in High School knows that. The speed of a skater into a toepick jump gets the jump higher and easier to turn in the air. It's the law of Physics, my dear. Nothing to do with ISU rules.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
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Try rereading it and carfefully and not reading they way you normall do. If you skate a 1/2 turn on the ice and 1/4 more on landing that equal 3/4 on ice. The actual turn in the air will be 3 minus 3/4 or 2-1/4 turns. The Law of Arthimetics will help you undestand that.
I said nothing about toepick jumps. I wasn't comparing them in that context.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
I'm not sure where this is leading? In terms of pure physics, yes, more speed is going to = more height and distance. But that's not just for toe jumps, it's the same case with edge jumps too. And in both cases the skater has to find the happy medium that allows them to get enough push to fully rotate but no so much that they can't control what they are doing.
~Z
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
Double posting is bad a thing, lol. It would be better to reply to one single post with one single post.
Yes...I understand completely. I've taken Calculus and done very well with it, in fact. I just don't see what you're trying to say. Some Salchows and Loops are basically 2.25 rotations done solely in the air, yes. What's the point?
~Z
Yes...I understand completely. I've taken Calculus and done very well with it, in fact. I just don't see what you're trying to say. Some Salchows and Loops are basically 2.25 rotations done solely in the air, yes. What's the point?
~Z
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
I found double loops hard at first, but then learned then on the tail end of my flips and salchows.... and they got better. Then i worked on double flip double loop, it really helped me get that POP up into the ar=ir without much spped. Now solo double loops are easy. My coach makes me do as mant double-double loop-double loop combos and then string on some single loops. Boy does that build muscle!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
very good. You're making progress. Consecutive loop jumps are quite attractive in a routine becaue they have a certain rythm to them. They go well with music and shouldn't take much preparation once you get the hang of them.I found double loops hard at first, but then learned then on the tail end of my flips and salchows.... and they got better. Then i worked on double flip double loop, it really helped me get that POP up into the ar=ir without much spped. Now solo double loops are easy. My coach makes me do as mant double-double loop-double loop combos and then string on some single loops. Boy does that build muscle!
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
To go all the way back to the original question on this thread, I wouldn't be surprised to see both the solo triple loop and the solo triple toe disappear from the programs of the ladies at the very top.
As I understand it, these two jumps are the only possibilities for the second jump of a triple/triple combo (because you are on the wrong foot to do any of the others, except for a sequence, yes?) If your triple/triple is a triple Lutz/triple toe (Meissner) or a triple flip/triple toe (Kim), then you can't also do a solo triple toe without running into Zayak problems.
If you do triple Lutz/triple loop (Ando) or triple flip/triple loop (Asada), then you can't also do a solo triple loop for the same reason.
As I understand it, these two jumps are the only possibilities for the second jump of a triple/triple combo (because you are on the wrong foot to do any of the others, except for a sequence, yes?) If your triple/triple is a triple Lutz/triple toe (Meissner) or a triple flip/triple toe (Kim), then you can't also do a solo triple toe without running into Zayak problems.
If you do triple Lutz/triple loop (Ando) or triple flip/triple loop (Asada), then you can't also do a solo triple loop for the same reason.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
BTW, for whatever reason, men do not seem to be able to do a triple loop in combination at all (too hard?). Except for Oda's 3A+3T+3Lo, every triple/triple or quad/triple done at wolrds ended with the easier toe loop.
Takahashi: 3F+3T
Lambiel: 3Lz+3T and 2F+3T (intended 3F+3T)
Joubert: 3T+3T (intended 4T+3T)
Vernier: 4T+3T
Lysacek: 3A+3T and 3F+3T
Berntssen: 3A+3T
Buttle: none
Lindemann: none
Weir: 3A+3T
Preubert: 3A+3T+2T
Davydov: 3A+3T
Bradley: 3Lz+3T
Sandhu: 3Lz+3T
Othman: 3Lz+3T
Macypara: 3A+3T
Kovalevski: 3F+3T
Takahashi: 3F+3T
Lambiel: 3Lz+3T and 2F+3T (intended 3F+3T)
Joubert: 3T+3T (intended 4T+3T)
Vernier: 4T+3T
Lysacek: 3A+3T and 3F+3T
Berntssen: 3A+3T
Buttle: none
Lindemann: none
Weir: 3A+3T
Preubert: 3A+3T+2T
Davydov: 3A+3T
Bradley: 3Lz+3T
Sandhu: 3Lz+3T
Othman: 3Lz+3T
Macypara: 3A+3T
Kovalevski: 3F+3T
I don't think the skaters in general are very fond of loop combos... Those who I heard talking about combinations ending in a loop, and particularly triple loop, found the combo difficult to control and putting more strain on the landing leg.
The other thing is that a lot of senior men skaters seem to have a bit "wild" landings. When looking at their jumps in slow-mo, you'll often see that their edges sort of "skid" during the landing. While they execute the combos the moment when they "steady" the edge before the second jump is clearly noticeable. (Joubert in particular doesn't seem to be fond of combos at all, almost never tries them in Galas and often omits them in competitions (CoR, JO).) I don't think that adding a loop after such a landing would be easy, or even possible at all. So, rather than risk popping the combo most of the men prefer to stay with "safer" triple toe. Oda has perfect jump landings so 3L is not a problem for him.
The interesting tidbit is that when Mao was seen practicing 3A combo it was 3A-3T, not 3A-3L, even though 3T is not her favourite jump. Also Oda's combo was initially 3A-3L-3T (when you'll listen to the Japanese commentary during his junior Worlds EX, you'll hear the commantator saying she was impressed by him landing it in practice). When he brought it into competitions, he reversed the order of loop and toe, probably because if something went wrong with the landing of the axel he would still be able to add a 3T on the end of it and attach 3L on the end of a different combo.
It seems to me that in order to land 3L as a second jump in the combo you need to land the first jump perfectly, and not many skaters are willing to take the risk (or are unable to land it at all
).
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Thanks for that explation, Z4mboni. That makes a lot of sense.
I agree about skaters like Joubert. The only reason for doing a combo at all is so that the skater can do two quads. For instance, if a man stars out with
4T
4T+2T
3A
3A+2T
he's already on his way to a huge program.
I agree about skaters like Joubert. The only reason for doing a combo at all is so that the skater can do two quads. For instance, if a man stars out with
4T
4T+2T
3A
3A+2T
he's already on his way to a huge program.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
If you executed a "perfect" (in your words) salchow with no pre-rotation, then you woulnd't be executing a proper a salchow becuase you'd have to be on a flat to have no pre-rotation...would that be a falchow?!
I have never heard that the salchow if a full 360 degree jump from angle of blade on take off to angle of blade on landing. Petkevich describes the salchow as a half turn jump. Many coaches i know emphasise the inherent deepenoing on the edge on edge jumps results in jumps that are not full revolution.
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Seems to me that the observation that the lone triple loop is a rare beast is simply untrue - look at the list of skaters in previous posts that included solo triple loops.
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
While i think the theory and the physics may indeed be right - the mental aspect of approaching an element with speed is a whole other ball game
I can skate pretty fast into waltz, toe-loop and salchow. But for attempts and loop and flip i have to skate carefully otherwise i chicken out and can't even attempt the jump. Strangely the faster i skater into a lutz the more solid it seems (even if i rarely land it or take off freom an outside edge!).
Ant
Theoretically you can do more unusual combo's. Back in the day - many years ago when there were prescribed jumps to be done in combination we saw things like 1 foot triple sal/2flip combos. And if a skater was completely able to jump in both directions we could see triple lutz/triple lutz combos which would be very cool.
