The Lone Triple Loop Jump

[z4mboni]

Why not a 3Sal or a 3T

Does this refer to Oda's 2x2A..? Because he cannot put more than 8 triples in a program and he already has his jump layout maxed out.

The strategy seems to be to maximize the points with the easiest jumps. OK.

Actually, the point is to maximize the point with the most difficult jumps. For more loop jumps check out junior & novice competitions - those skaters who haven't mastered flip & jump gather points with loops and salchows.
It amused me how novice Murakami won in the LP in a local competition over WInter Universiade Champion, in spite of having ger 3Lz and 3F downgraded. She won on strenght of her great lower tier jumps (lovely 3S-2L-2L combo). But, of course, she wouldn't be competetive with senior skaters who have all the jumps more or less steady.

I don't particularly miss 3L - I see plenty of it in Galas and I sure have seen enough of it in previous seasons, particularly in 04/05 season, where it was required in SP in Junior competitions. Personally I appreciate a bit of change every season, like in Mao's jump layouts - solo 3Ls in 04/05 to close the programs, 3L-2L-2L year later, now it's 3F-3L (and 3L-2L & 3L in Galas) and 3T is back. Maybe 3S for next year..? It's nice to see the skaters improve.

So put a cheated 3loop in a combo. It works.

It does not. Cheated loop will be downgraded, and the judges are really strict on this recently.

 

[Mathman]

The thread is questioning Solo Jumps and I continually read about combos all with the easy toepick takeoff.

Joe, the original question on this thread was:

Has anyone noticed that many skaters leave this jump out of their routines, except for 'in combo'?

What posters are saying, in answer to your question, is that the CoP rewards skaters who "leave this jump out of their routine, except in combo."

Skaters will do whatever the point system rewards them for.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, the original question on this thread was: What posters are saying, in answer to your question, is that the CoP rewards skaters who "leave this jump out of their routine, except in combo."

That is your answer and of course, it is the only answer. I should not think differently.

Skaters will do whatever the point system rewards them for.

How sure are you of that statement? Your simplistic reply is that of strategy. It's only the Asian Ladies you like who avoid the 3loop. Other female skater don't avoid it. Regardless of the almighty points, those who do avoid it, put it in a combo because it is easier. There are posters who agree with me too. And so what? Does the majority of posters' obsersations make the case?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I didn't mean to rile you, Joe. Sorry.

Let's take a look at the men. Suppose you don't have a quad (Oda, for instance) , but you have everything else and you want to give yourself the best chance to win. Here is your best shot:

3A+3T = 11.5
3A = 7.5
3Lz+3Lo = 11.0
3Lz = 6.0
3F+2Lo+2Lo = 9.0

Nothing else will give you as many points as this.

Now you have three more jumping passes. What are you going to do? Because of the Zayak rules you can't do a solo 3 loop. You can't do a solo 3 toe. You can't do another triple Axel, triple Lutz or triple flip. You can't do another combination or sequence. So all you can do is

3S
2A
2A

Of course if you have a quad, many other possibilities are available.

 

[Mathman]

It's only the Asian Ladies you like who avoid the 3loop. Other female skaters don't avoid it.

I would put it this way. Only the number one and the number two ladies in the world can do a triple Lutz / triple loop or a triple flip / triple loop.

Other female skaters can't, so they do a solo triple loop instead (losing points by so doing, and finishing out of the money at worlds).

 

[Mathman]

Actually, the men's side is quite interesting. There seems to be a lot more variety in the jump layouts than for the ladies.

At worlds, only one man (Oda) did a combination ending with a triple loop. (He opened with 3A+3T+3Lo = 16.5 points.)

Only one man (Ponsera) did not attempt a triple loop at all.

Skaters that did a solo triple loop (or doubled an attempted triple) or did a combination like 3Lo+2T with a triple loop first were:

Takahashi, Lambiel, Joubert, Vernier, Lysacek, Berntssen, Buttle, Lindemenn, Weir, Preubert, Davydov, Bradley, Maybe, Sandhu, Zelenka, Latai, Voronov, Othman, Urbas, Macypura, Kovalevski and Wu.

So I would say that the solo triple loop is alive and well, but the loop combination is still a rarity despite it's high point values.

(I don't know what that proves, but anyway, there it is. )

 

[manleywoman]

I agree that the 3-loop is a difficult jump and it has ended a lot of careers due to the injuries it causes to the hips (Stellatto, Kwan, Lipinski, Kirk...and Carolina Kostner missed most of this season due to an ankle injury caused by the loop jump).

Just wanted to clarify that Stellato's injury was caused on the 3lutz, not 3loop. Her coach is my coach. Her coach is actually my 4th podcast interview in June, and we'll be talking about Deanna Stellato for part of the interview.

http://web.mac.com/rogueelement/iWeb/skatecast/Welcome.html

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for joining us, Manley. I hope we can get you to stick around. Post often, post long!

(PS. I see by your custom title that you are from Detroit! )

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I would put it this way. Only the number one and the number two ladies in the world can do a triple Lutz / triple loop or a triple flip / triple loop.

Other female skaters can't, so they do a solo triple loop instead (losing points by so doing, and finishing out of the money at worlds).

I know full well how the layman sees the combo jumps. EXCITING!
Try looking at them in slomo. I guarantee most combos will look less accurate on the second and third attempt.

in the world today.. Otherwise I'll bring up Midori, Irina, and how many others of yore?

I think the best way to have answered, if indeed is needs to be answered, would be to just say, I believe some skaters leave out the 3loop because it is a triple with a not so pretty iffy entry and that it does not flow out easily on the landing. Also to consider, despite the problematic entry and landing, there are the CoP allotments which are not as high as the lutz and flip. That would be more of a discussion than just passing it off that CoP doesn't award a big base score.

Does the lutz and flip deserve to be higher with their very iffy problematic edges for the toe picks? Let's do them on the wrong edge. It works.:scratch:

For me, edge jumps are harder and I want someone to point out a skater who does a toeless lutz. The toe-off jumps do give a skater a boost in height off the ice.

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

For me, edge jumps are harder and I want someone to point out a skater who does a toeless lutz. The toe-off jumps do give a skater a boost in height off the ice.

You absolutely can not compare a toeless lutz to a Loop. Edge jumps work because they allow you to pre-rotate on the edge. I want to see someone who does a Loop from a STRAIGHT LINE. That's what you're asking for.

However, I do think that the Loop should be considered a harder jump than the Flip. The point values on those two jumps should be reversed.

EDIT: Also, by switching the point values like that and giving a bonus point to skaters who complete all of the Triples + Double Axle (Triple for Men), it makes the "traditional" jump layout of 2 Lutzes + one of every other jump the most appealing for women who do not have a 3/3 combo or a 3/3 sequence (or 2Axle + 3 sequence).

~Z

 

[dlarry1]

Also, by switching the point values like that and giving a bonus point to skaters who complete all of the Triples + Double Axle (Triple for Men), it makes the "traditional" jump layout of 2 Lutzes + one of every other jump the most appealing for women who do not have a 3/3 combo or a 3/3 sequence (or 2Axle + 3 sequence).

~Z

I like this idea a lot, because it also gives both judges and fans a way to compare each skater's particular jump against the others. Odd how we can all tell the difference between the same 3 spiral positions, because they're the only ones we see, but we can't compare jumps quite as well. Maybe if we see everyone doing the same ones?

 

[Zuranthium]

It's satisfying to see skaters complete all of the different jumps. That should be rewarded. Although technically, even with the bonus point, leaving out the Toeloop in place of a second Loop would still make the program worth a bit more overall. However, I think many people would definitely opt to keep the "traditional" approach considering the risk of a second 3Loop in a program vs. the relatively "surefire" 3Toeloop.

~Z

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can compare whatever I want to; the same as others can. Wow, the sarcasm here. Those flippant comments! not about the subject but against the poster. Someone had a tough time at growing up and now can release some pent up anger in the forum.

I was not comparing loops and flips per se. Just that edge jumps are more difficult than toepick jumps. toepick jumps are an assist to the Toeless lutz, the salchow and the loop jumps. To make it clearer:

The loop jump is more difficult than the Toe Loop Jump.

The Salchow is more difficult than the Flip

The Toeless Lutz is more difficult than the Lutz.

No way did I compare a Loop Jump with a Lutz Jump. The only one who brought that comparison up isZuranthium

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

The loop jump is more difficult than the Toe Loop Jump.

Definitely.

The Salchow is more difficult than the Flip.

No. Why have many Quad Salchows been landed but no Quad Flips? Why do people fall or mess up on the 3Flip more than the 3Sal? Why are most skaters able to get their 3Sal before their 3Flip?

A Salchow is not simply a "toeless Flip", even though the Flip does go by the name "Toe-Salchow" in some parts. Your free leg is behind you with a Flip and in front of you with the Salchow. It's two different mechanics. The Salchow is easier because your body weight is positioned such that the opposing side of your body pushes itself into the jump, whereas with the Flip you have to use your muscles more to push that body weight into the rotations.

The Toeless Lutz is more difficult than the Lutz.

No way did I compare a Loop Jump with a Lutz Jump. The only one who brought that comparison up isZuranthium

You said that Edge jumps were harder than toe jumps. Your reasoning was "nobody does a Toeless Lutz". This does not prove anything since a Toeless Lutz is basically IMPOSSIBLE to do as a Triple and has totally different mechanics than an actual edge jump. In saying "I'd like to see someone do a Toeless Lutz", it's like saying you want to see someone do a Loop jump out of a backward glide and directly off of the edge with no pre-rotation. Just doesn't work like that.

I would agree that edge jumps are harder than toe jumps, on average, but this would be the proper way to describe it, imo:

Axel (edge) >> Lutz (toe) > Loop (edge) > Flip (toe) > Salchow (edge) > Toeloop (toe).

Edge jumps and toe jumps both have varying degrees of difficulty. Saying that ALL edge jumps are harder is not correct in my mind.

~Z

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think Toeless Lutz is listed with a base value, but it may have been taken out. There have been a few skaters who have tried the toeless lutz and some wound up in the hospital. We had a discussion on this way back.

 

[antmanb]

I know full well how the layman sees the combo jumps. EXCITING!
Try looking at them in slomo. I guarantee most combos will look less accurate on the second and third attempt.

in the world today.. Otherwise I'll bring up Midori, Irina, and how many others of yore?

I think the best way to have answered, if indeed is needs to be answered, would be to just say, I believe some skaters leave out the 3loop because it is a triple with a not so pretty iffy entry and that it does not flow out easily on the landing. Also to consider, despite the problematic entry and landing, there are the CoP allotments which are not as high as the lutz and flip. That would be more of a discussion than just passing it off that CoP doesn't award a big base score.

Does the lutz and flip deserve to be higher with their very iffy problematic edges for the toe picks? Let's do them on the wrong edge. It works.:scratch:

For me, edge jumps are harder and I want someone to point out a skater who does a toeless lutz. The toe-off jumps do give a skater a boost in height off the ice.

Joe

Does this mean that actually the thread you started was a rhetorical question that needed no answer becuase you already had the model answer written? Why encourage debate on something you have already made you rmind up about and are unwilling to listen to anyoe else's opinions :scratch:

Ant

 

[antmanb]

The Salchow is more difficult than the Flip

I don't know a single person who thinks that a salchow is more difficult than a flip. Personally i struggle with teh flip but have a consistent easy salchow.

If the salchow was harder than the flip then surely we would have seen quad flips before quad salchows?

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Does this mean that actually the thread you started was a rhetorical question that needed no answer becuase you already had the model answer written? Why encourage debate on something you have already made you rmind up about and are unwilling to listen to anyoe else's opinions :scratch:

Ant

Why do you think I started this thread?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't know a single person who thinks that a salchow is more difficult than a flip. Personally i struggle with teh flip but have a consistent easy salchow.

If the salchow was harder than the flip then surely we would have seen quad flips before quad salchows?

Ant

A perfectly executed salchow , i.e., no half turns on ice before take-off is very difficult but I understand that however one takes off on a jump, it is ok. So with this in mind, I can agree with you. The Flip of course is easy because most skaters (and especially me when I skated) will take off on a flat.

Toepick jumps are the best way to get height and applause.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Why encourage debate on something you have already made you rmind up about and are unwilling to listen to anyoe else's opinions

Why can it not be ignored? It was started in IFS which brought up the subject.