Is Worlds "unfair" to individual skaters?

Joesitz said:

Anyway, all that is too political for what the question is asking.

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But here's why the politics is relevant. If we are just chatting on the Internet, fine. But if we are serious about initiating changes, then we have to know something about what we're up against.

Here is a question about the current rules. Suppose a country (like Korea, for instance) has one world championship caliber skater and no one else to send. Can that skater all by herself qualify her country for two or three spots the next year?

Would it then be up to the national federation whether to fill those spots or just let them stand vacant? If some places go unfilled, are further invitations made to skaters from other countries?

enlight78 said:

I agree. I just thought there would probably be some coaches that might volunteer for such a chance to help the sport grow. I doubt the ISU will become military like and start drafting coaches and sending them to Iraq for the Freedom Skating Federation of Iraq Against All Terrorism.

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But it would be for their own good! They would welcome us with open arms and be ever so grateful.

bekalc said:

But the problem with ISU rankings is that rankings aren't one year only.. Rankings also combine a lot of years.. So newer skaters are at a disadvantage...

Now, do I think that Fumie Suguri last year would have placed in the top 10 at Worlds. Yes... It's still the best figure skaters in the world.. Its' just the best skaters of each country compete. And the fact that Fumie couldn't place in the top 3 at her own national championships suggest more than likely she wasn't going to medal at Worlds.

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Newer Skaters are at a disadvatage with the current system also espeacially if the federation has less than three spots. The bias judging of nationals are more likely to ensure a past represenative will win. My idea allowed for all federations to send three representives (not including players ranked top 10) The representatives not rank in the top 10 would have particpate in a qualification round. The 40 skaters with the highest total will advance and join the top ten to compete in the short and long program.
Fumie Sugurie is the best representative of the unfairness of the current procedure. I believe she should at least have had the chance to try.

enlight78 said:

Sarah Hughes was lucky enough there was a spot for her and look at how well she use it.

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Is this in refernce to 2007 Worlds? Sarah Hughes wasn't lucky. She got second at U.S. Nationals. The United States had three slots. Therefore she went to Worlds (along with third-place finisher Alissa Czisny).

For next year, for U.S. ladies, Meissner (6th) and Hughes (9th) are in the top ten. So the U.S. would send Czisny, Bebe Liang, and Rachael Flatt (if age eligible, otherwise Danielle Kahle) to the qualifying round. It would be interesting to see how they did.

Mathman said:

Is this in refernce to 2007 Worlds? Sarah Hughes wasn't lucky. She got second at U.S. Nationals. The United States had three slots. Therefore she went to Worlds (along with third-place finisher Alissa Czisny).

For next year, for U.S. ladies, Meissner (6th) and Hughes (9th) are in the top ten. So the U.S. would send Czisny, Bebe Liang, and Rachael Flatt (if age eligible, otherwise Danielle Kahle) to the qualifying round. It would be interesting to see how they did.

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Thanks for the correction Mathman. For some reason I thought she was third.

enlight78 said:

Newer Skaters are at a disadvatage with the current system also espeacially if the federation has less than three spots. The bias judging of nationals are more likely to ensure a past represenative will win. My idea allowed for all federations to send three representives (not including players ranked top 10) The representatives not rank in the top 10 would have particpate in a qualification round. The 40 skaters with the highest total will advance and join the top ten to compete in the short and long program.
Fumie Sugurie is the best representative of the unfairness of the current procedure. I believe she should at least have had the chance to try.Sarah Hughes was lucky enough there was a spot for her and look at how well she use it.

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Huh? I disagree with you here. Fumie did have a chance to try for the World Championships, but she didn't qualify because three of her teammates are better than she is. The girl who won the third spot: Nakano faced Fumie three times that year, and won two out of the three competitions....

IN the current situation every skater does get an opportunity to perhaps skate in the World Championship, they just have to qualify through their national championships that is their qualifying rounds. And I don't think there is that much bias, I think that every federation has an interest in sending their best skaters into those competitions. If sometimes things do look rigged (as they did two years ago when Nakano was left off the Olympic team for Japan) normally the federation learns its lesson based on how the skaters skate...

bekalc said:

Huh? I disagree with you here. Fumie did have a chance to try for the World Championships, but she didn't qualify because three of her teammates are better than she is.

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Under Enlight's plan, Asada, Nakano and Ando would all get a bye into the World championship.

In addition, Japan (like every other country) would get to send three skaters to the qualifying tournament. That would be Fumie and two others.

So the question is not whether Fumie could beat Nakano, but whther she could skate well enough in the qualifying round to advance to the main event, against all the other skaters from around the world. If she did, then Japan would end up with four (or more) contestants, at the expense perhaps of skaters from India or Kazakhstan who would not advance.

Mathman said:

Under Enlight's plan, Asada, Nakano and Ando would all get a bye into the World championship.

In addition, Japan (like every other country) would get to send three skaters to the qualifying tournament. That would be Fumie and two others.

So the question is not whether Fumie could beat Nakano, but whther she could skate well enough in the qualifying round to advance to the main event, against all the other skaters from around the world. If she did, then Japan would end up with four (or more) contestants, at the expense perhaps of skaters from India or Kazakhstan who would not advance.

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which would be a bigger flaw. another case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting robbed.

zephyrskates said:

which would be a bigger flaw. another case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting robbed.

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Well, the whole premise of this thread is that Fumie is a better skater than the skater from Kazakhstan. So who most deserves a shot at the championship?

If you say that the country of Kazakhstan deserves to send its champion no matter how good or bad she is -- well, I guess that is what this thread is discussing. Who has "rights," individual skaters or National Federations? (Remember that under Enlight's plan, the skater from Kazakhstan would still get to compete. But if Fumie beat her, then Fumie would advance to the final round and the other skater wouldn't.)

Mathman said:

Well, the whole premise of this thread is that Fumie is a better skater than the skater from Kazakhstan. So who most deserves a shot at the championship?

If you say that the country of Kazakhstan deserves to send its champion no matter how good or bad she is -- well, I guess that is what this thread is discussing. Who has "rights," individual skaters or National Federations? (Remember that under Enlight's plan, the skater from Kazakhstan would still get to compete. But if Fumie beat her, then Fumie would advance to the final round and the other skater wouldn't.)

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Your never going to have a fair situation.. Life isn't fair. But I want to point out that Fumie has had a lot of benefits that the girl from Kazakhstan has not had. She's come from a great federation, with money and good coaches.. And so quite frankly, given those opportunities Fumie should be better.

Yes, there are skaters from little known countries that are probably not going to make it past the short program. But a lot of times these skaters go back, and they become coaches and they draw interest in their countries. For example Lu Chen's coach, Shen and Zhao's coaches were skaters who placed last in the Olympics/Worlds. And they went back and used their experience to coach champions.

Also, many of the coaches who coached Yu-na Kim, had similar experiences. They didn't do well at worlds/Olympics at all but used their experience to become coaches and look who came out.

Giving these skaters from little known countries the opportunities to go to Worlds and the Olympics, gives them a modest goal to work towards. If you have just a qualifying round, really, it will cease to be a World championship, rather it will be Japan, the United States and perhaps one or two female skaters from Europe.. (With one Korean) How fair is that? And without the realistic opportunity to go to worlds/Olympics, what is going to motivate skaters from lesser countries to continue skating?

From the little I understand, I don't think that Yu-na Kim ever really thought that she'd have the opportunity to be a world/Olympic champion until very recently. She came from a federation with very little good skaters, and so who did Yu-na have to compare herself with? It wasn't until Yu-na started winning Junior international meets, that she began to realize that she could perhaps hope to win Worlds/Olympics.

No situation is fair, of course Fumie had a much tougher qualifying round than the girl from Turkey... Because Fumie has also had a lot more opportunities too. A lot more.

Its not right to say that Fumie didn't have a shot. Fumie did have a shot to go to worlds, and she didn't qualify...

Bekalc, again, I bow down to your post.

bekalc said:

I say let the country of Kazakhstan have their national champion skate. Yes, Fumie may be better than that girl from Kazakhstan. But you know what Fumie has also had a lot more opportunities than that girl from Kazakhstan because she came from a top federation with money, and good coaches. So no offense but Fumie should be better.

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In the past the World Championships have had qualification rounds. Kazakhstans will still be able to compete at Worlds just that she probably won't advance past the QR.The whole point is to give more skaters the opportunity to compete at world

bekalc said:

If the poster's plan was set into action than it would really cease to be a world championships. Rather it would be Japan versus the United States with maybe 3 or four Europeans thrown in, and one Korean girl..

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The plan offers all federations three spots in the Qualifying Round. If they are good enough they will advance. I trying to get away from the concept of Japan vs. Us vs France vs. Russia. Worlds is not the Olympics. It should be completely international and promote individual skaters. It should be Mao vs Kim vs Kostner vs Kimmie instead of U.S. vs Europe vs Asia vs Kazakhstan

As for the motivation. I am sure skaters from small federations first goal would be do well at nationals so their federation will be incline to send them to Worlds. Their second goal would be do their best in the qualifying round. If they don't advance this year. That would be a goal for next year is to advace past the qualifying round. Who knows maybe sometime in the future the skater will finish in the to twenty. This actually give skaters more goals and motivation. Before there was basicly two goals; win nationals and do my best at worlds.

enlight78 said:

In the past the World Championships have had qualification rounds. Kazakhstans will still be able to compete at Worlds just that she probably won't advance past the QR.The whole point is to give more skaters the opportunity to compete at world



The plan offers all federations three spots in the Qualifying Round. If they are good enough they will advance. I trying to get away from the concept of Japan vs. Us vs France vs. Russia. Worlds is not the Olympics. It should be completely international and promote individual skaters. It should be Mao vs Kim vs Kostner vs Kimmie instead of U.S. vs Europe vs Asia vs Kazakhstan

As for the motivation. I am sure skaters from small federations first goal would be do well at nationals so their federation will be incline to send them to Worlds. Their second goal would be do their best in the qualifying round. If they don't advance this year. That would be a goal for next year is to advace past the qualifying round. Who knows maybe sometime in the future the skater will finish in the to twenty. This actually give skaters more goals and motivation. Before there was basicly two goals; win nationals and do my best at worlds.

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But even you are limiting the number of entries that each nation can send to qualifying 3 plus anyone in the top 24 correct? The sad fact is that probably all of the top 24 skaters in the US nationals could probably beat some of those skaters that other nations present even in the qualifying. So still you will have individual skaters who will not make it to worlds because they come from a stronger nation even though they are better than the girl from Kazakhstan...

Really, I think that figure skating is an individual sport, and it really is Kimmie verses Mao verses Carolina.. I mean you don't hear that many people saying go USA when Kimmie skates its go Kimmie, especially since Kimmie is competiting against other Americans. The only think that the ISU does is limit the number of entries that each nation can send to worlds. Thus, nationals or what ever else their particular nation uses, serves as qualifiers.. I'm sorry but there is not perfect system. To have a perfect system would probably involve a qualfying round that included perhaps well over a hundred skaters maybe even two hundred skaters. And in all honesty, I don't think that the ISU can afford that.

There are a lot more benefits from belonging to a strong national team than not belonging. And sometimes missing out because you have better competition, can be the best thing for a skater's future development.

A great example is Mirai Nagasu.. Two years ago she missed out on qualifying for Nationals. She had probably the toughest sectional out there, and in another sectional probably would have made it. However, if you hear Mirai in interviews, she says that missing out on Nationals that year was the best thing that could have happened to her.. Because it forced her to reevaulate her skating and work harder the next year. She says what happened is she got lazy because everyone including herself thought she'd make it through. She feels that missing out, forced her to be a better skater, and that's the reason the next year she was able to win Junior nationals and take second at Junior worlds.

If you truly want to be the best in the world, there are benefits to having tough competition getting there.

enlight78 said:

If they did well Grand prix events and competitions like 4CC then their World Rank will be high enough to automatinlly quallify for Worlds Championships no matter how they peform at nationals.

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Currently, a skater such as Yu-Na could earn her way to Worlds (Jr. or Sr.), and based on her performance there gets GP assignments. How would you select the skaters who go to the GP?

Looking at it from the point of view of the skater from Kazakhstan, I don't see too much difference between the following scenarios.

1.How it is now. She wins the national championship uncontested, goes to Worlds, skates her short program (finishing near the bottom), then goes home feeling exhilarated and vowing to do even better next year.

2. Enlight's idea. She wins the national championship uncontested, goes to Worlds, skates her long program in the qualifying round (finishing near the bottom), then goes home feeling exhilarated and vowing to do even better next year.

In fact, I think the present system actually is pretty much the same idea as Enlight's plan. Namely, it is a compromise between the conflicting rights of individual skaters and ISU member federations. Every country gets to send one representative regardless. The strongest countries get to send two or three.

In Enlight's plan, every country gets to send three. The strongest countries get to send as many as six.

The drawback to Enlight's plan is that the World's roster would more than double in size, with a corresponding increase in expenses for the ISU and the host venue. But without generating any more income.

In fact, I think that was the reason for eliminating the qualifying round in the first place -- they ran out of money.

Mathman said:

In fact, I think that was the reason for eliminating the qualifying round in the first place -- they ran out of money.

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I believe this is the true flaw in my plan. If only figure skating was as popular as football or futbol or soccer. Could you imagine Johnny Weirs costumes with Nike on the side of it.

attyfan said:

Currently, a skater such as Yu-Na could earn her way to Worlds (Jr. or Sr.), and based on her performance there gets GP assignments. How would you select the skaters who go to the GP?

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I don't know. I haven't thought it all the way through.

Mathman said:

But here's why the politics is relevant. If we are just chatting on the Internet, fine. But if we are serious about initiating changes, then we have to know something about what we're up against.

Here is a question about the current rules. Suppose a country (like Korea, for instance) has one world championship caliber skater and no one else to send. Can that skater all by herself qualify her country for two or three spots the next year?

Would it then be up to the national federation whether to fill those spots or just let them stand vacant? If some places go unfilled, are further invitations made to skaters from other countries?

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No problem with what you are suggesting changes for but no one has answered the question of whether the present system is fair or not.

If the posters who are suggesting changes within the confines of the ISU then they should first state that the present system is unfair to individual skaters therefore the ISU should amend their regulations.

Now remember, there are posters who are quite happy with the ISU regulations the way they are.

Scenario: Korea can send 3 skaters to Worlds based on a Korean finish last year. Are these two additional skaters which they will be sending up to World standards?

Albania can send only one skater

United States can send only three but have 4 in reserve that are better han Korea's extra two and Albania's one.

Question of Poster: Are individual skaters being treated unfairly with present regulations?

Joe

Not only is there the monetary issue, but you've got the issue of judges. As it is, the judges sit through ~45 short programs freezing their @sses off over ~5 hours straight to determine which 24 will skate LP. They don't get a break during the competiton because then there will be collusion, cheating, etc. So, you double the number of skaters to ~80-90 which means the judges sit in a cold rink for ~10 hours straight to determine which 24 skaters will skate LP. If 45 is hard to judge (especially in the middle of the pack, where in a group of 40-45 includes skaters ranked 24 and 25 - one makes it and one doesn't), what would 80-90 be like to judge? I know, as much as I love to skate and watch skating, I would take a pass at judging THAT group!!

But if you add in that its unfair that (one extra not two Korea has two spots) Koreans get to skate at Worlds next year, when the US has a skater who will do better as does Japan. You have to also factor in that the US skaters have a lot of advantages that the Albanian skater and the Korean skaters do not have. They have access to better coaching and funding.. It's not like the Albanian skater and the US skater start on an equal playing field to begin with.


I think that in this sport your always going to have these kind of issues, and in any sport. You see it in basketball and baseball all the time where you may have one conference that is much weaker than the other conference. In the NBA this year, the Spurs crushed the Eastern Conference champs, and there were probably 4 teams in the Western Conference (maybe even five ) that would have beaten the Cavs. Still, the end result was that the Cav's just got beaten in the finals..While a bunch of Western conference teams gotten beaten in first, second, and third rounds...All the teams involved still lost. And baring the Mav's perhaps playing a team that didn't know their number, the results would have been exactly the same.

I have to ask if anyone thinks that the end result would have been different if let's say Fumie Suguri, and Bebe Liang would have been able to skate at worlds last year... Does anyone really think that Miki Ando wouldn't have won the competition? I submit that the end result would be the same. If your not good enough to place in the top 3 at your countries nationals qualifying round, your not going to win Worlds anyways. Or medal because the competition at worlds is still going to better than your national competition... Perhaps, it might make those who have issues feel better if the regard Japanese nationals (for example) as a Worlds qualifier.