Kamila Valieva anti-doping rule violation: Timeline

[4everchan]

I am ok too if you'd prefer suspending the whole team

 

[icewhite]

I'm sorry, 4ever, but that idea is a bit insane. How is anyone supposed to control their students like that? It is impossible. And to trust other people like that, put your entire career and reputation into their hands? I wouldn't even do that if doping was much less wide spread than it is. There are like 4 or 5 people in my life I'd trust like that and they are ones that do not have the mindset of a professional athlete, which often is to do everything for success. Sure, it's unlikely these things happen without the knowledge of a coach if it's a teenager, but the athletes might have family members who are more familiar with these things, or they might be super talents and sponsors approach them or whatever.

There are so many open abusers in the sport, I would be happy if the sport dealt with those and took them out for things that they themselves did that everyone knows about. I would also be happy if anti-doping was better funded and if the many stupid stories about doping that get repeated again and again (doping doesn't help in figure skating/tennis/football/xy; abc has always tested negative in (other) tests, that means they were clean; it's such a small dose it didn't help; it's not even proven the substance helps so why would anyone take that risk on purpose...) were actually called out as bs by everyone with a name in the sport. That would already get us forward.

 

[4everchan]

It is not about control. It is about installing a culture that doping is a serious offence and that it affects the sport in its entirety... The doper not only deprives others of opportunities but should also be accountable to their team and coaches. That's called fair play. It is not crazy at all

 

[TallyT]

The idea to suspend the coach when their athlete has doped is not applicable. No coach would ever take that risk to coach anybody anymore, you cannot and are not supposed to control every inch of your athlete's life - but even more importantly I don't think it's possible from a legal point of view.

I think the first time it was tried, the banned coach would be take it all the way to the appropriate international court of rights (and you think this case is taking a long time, you ain't seen nuthin' if that happens) and they would win.

 

[4everchan]

Btw.. some coaches and doctors have been suspended in the past for facilitating doping. Just check it before assuming it is completely unreasonable

 

[icewhite]

Btw.. some coaches and doctors have been suspended in the past for facilitating doping. Just check it before assuming it is completely unreasonable

Well, taking part in doping, even if passively, is one thing. But holding someone responsible by default because their pupil doped? I don't think that's possible.

(Note, I absolutely want coaches to be held responsible if they are responsible, I just don't think this is a way that can work.)

 

[Sackie]

Her Drug test was in Dec so isn't it possible that some one in the RUS camp knew of the possible outcome. And if so why then did they still choose her for the Team event. It was not like they didn't have other choices.

 

[4everchan]

Well, taking part in doping, even if passively, is one thing. But holding someone responsible by default because their pupil doped? I don't think that's possible.

(Note, I absolutely want coaches to be held responsible if they are responsible, I just don't think this is a way that can work.)

That's my point. Coaches ARE already responsible for so much. They control the schedule, the training sessions, the traveling, they select competitions their athletes will participate in, they control the diet, the physio, the sports psychology, the choreo, jump content etc...

Do you really think they do not control what their athletes take for drugs? Valieva had a ton of authorized substance in her body as well... Drugs and supplements that very few 15 years old on the entire planet would have ever even needed or heard of. To think that it's the athletes popping a pill for fun once in a while and that it would be harmful for an innocent coach is really what is ridiculous to me. Coaches are well aware of pretty much everything... and if their jobs were at risk over doping, rest assured, they would make sure their athletes DO NOT dope.

Of course, some would still try to cheat the system and these ones, once caught, would be penalized, not just their young athletes.

 

[saine]

Her Drug test was in Dec so isn't it possible that some one in the RUS camp knew of the possible outcome. And if so why then did they still choose her for the Team event. It was not like they didn't have other choices.

I don't think she or her coaches or the federation knew before the Olympics based on the timelines from the decision. They may not have thought they'd have anything to worry about based on past test results.

 

[Kittosuni]

I have a question, is Kamila also suspended in participating in shows or any local competitions?

 

[saine]

That's my point. Coaches ARE already responsible for so much. They control the schedule, the training sessions, the traveling, they select competitions their athletes will participate in, they control the diet, the physio, the sports psychology, the choreo, jump content etc...

Do you really think they do not control what their athletes take for drugs? Valieva had a ton of authorized substance in her body as well... Drugs and supplements that very few 15 years old on the entire planet would have ever even needed or heard of. To think that it's the athletes popping a pill for fun once in a while and that it would be harmful for an innocent coach is really what is ridiculous to me. Coaches are well aware of pretty much everything... and if their jobs were at risk over doping, rest assured, they would make sure their athletes DO NOT dope.

I looked at pages 20-21 of the decision document, where they discuss the 60 supplements. It's pretty interesting for where I think a theoretical investigation would go.

The doctors chose from a list of supplements provided by the Federal Medical and Biology Agency. The supplements are provided directly from the FMBA. The skaters are strictly forbidden from using supplements except the ones provided by the FMBA. Eteri doesn't discuss with the doctors what they prescribe to her skaters, so she officially knows nothing. She made herself not responsible for the supplements and put that on the doctors.

I don't know how well her not knowing anything would hold up if they wanted to investigate her. She did knowingly have a doctor banned for doping as part of her team, to the point that he was in the kiss and cry. If they got her on anything, that would probably be it.

But I'm sure WADA would love to look into those supplements provided directly by the FMBA that weren't contaminated at all. I can see why Eteri knows nothing officially about what was prescribed by her team doctors.

 

[icewhite]

That's my point. Coaches ARE already responsible for so much. They control the schedule, the training sessions, the traveling, they select competitions their athletes will participate in, they control the diet, the physio, the sports psychology, the choreo, jump content etc...

Do you really think they do not control what their athletes take for drugs? Valieva had a ton of authorized substance in her body as well... Drugs and supplements that very few 15 years old on the entire planet would have ever even needed or heard of. To think that it's the athletes popping a pill for fun once in a while and that it would be harmful for an innocent coach is really what is ridiculous to me. Coaches are well aware of pretty much everything... and if their jobs were at risk over doping, rest assured, they would make sure their athletes DO NOT dope.

Of course, some would still try to cheat the system and these ones, once caught, would be penalized, not just their young athletes.

Do I think Kamila did this on her own or was at least the driving force in this? Of course absolutely not. Either the coaches gave it to her or it's a system with fed, coaches and doctor involved and Eteri was at least part of it.
But.
Imagine what your suggestion would mean not just for Tutberidze, but for every coach of athletes who get tested: they would absolutely have to make sure their athletes don't dope. And how do you do that? You would have to control every inch of their lives. How do you, realistically, do that? Hire private detectives? Put mini cameras on them 24/7 and spend a lot of time to look at random moments of the material?
You cannot just say "coaches are well aware of pretty much everything" - yes, many in figure skating are, sometimes they even live with the athletes if they are young, but there are coaches who are not controlling their students 100% - and that is and should be normal. Even if you know a lot about your pupils you will not know everything. And that's the way it should be. They are coaches. Even parents do not always know everything their child does. Best friends and life partners and roommates do not know everything the other person does and you could not hold them responsible for the actions of the other person. Married people usually have the utmost interest in their significant other not cheating on them sexually, and yet, how many of them cannot ensure that and how many do not even know for years?

 

[Minz]

ETeri is her coach. The one who gets the praise gets the suspensions

Okay, but why can't Valieva just say that someone else is coaching her, and that person gets suspended?

 

[4everchan]

Okay, but why can't Valieva just say that someone else is coaching her, and that person gets suspended?

Because on her WADA file, she would have to state who her coach is. I feel like some are trying to make this complicated. I am throwing a wish in here, of course details would be worked out. I simply believe that it's unfair that a young athlete gets all the blame and the entourage none.

 

[4everchan]

Do I think Kamila did this on her own or was at least the driving force in this? Of course absolutely not. Either the coaches gave it to her or it's a system with fed, coaches and doctor involved and Eteri was at least part of it.

ok

But.

Imagine what your suggestion would mean not just for Tutberidze, but for every coach of athletes who get tested: they would absolutely have to make sure their athletes don't dope.

That's the aim isn't it ?

And how do you do that? You would have to control every inch of their lives. How do you, realistically, do that? Hire private detectives? Put mini cameras on them 24/7 and spend a lot of time to look at random moments of the material?

no need. They already control all their lives. Also, they would need to be strict and let them know : doping is NO. What's so difficult to understand here ? Kids listen to their coaches. They trust them more than their parents at times. So if the coach says : you don't dope, then it's a done deal. It may happen once in a while that an athlete dopes.. well.. then it's too bad but the coach gets a suspension. Tough. Better this than many athletes getting caught and the coach is still roaming free. Because you know, for 1 athlete caught, how many are not ? Let's sacrifice one athlete while the others win medals. I prefer the other way around : the athlete can only be accountable for the culture they have been brought up in.

You cannot just say "coaches are well aware of pretty much everything" - yes, many in figure skating are, sometimes they even live with the athletes if they are young, but there are coaches who are not controlling their students 100% - and that is and should be normal.

Yes you can It's team work. If my colleagues screw up, I go down too. We are all responsible for one another. What's the matter with that ?

Even if you know a lot about your pupils you will not know everything. And that's the way it should be. They are coaches. Even parents do not always know everything their child does. Best friends and life partners and roommates do not know everything the other person does and you could not hold them responsible for the actions of the other person. Married people usually have the utmost interest in their significant other not cheating on them sexually, and yet, how many of them cannot ensure that and how many do not even know for years?

Education and trust. Let's leave the emotional content out of this. This is not about husbands cheating on their wives. It's about fair play. It's about healthy sport. It's about honest training and clean competitions. If we cannot demand this from federations, coaches and athletes, then we allow for cases like the one we are discussing. Athletes choose to participate in elite competitive sport and abide by the rules. Coaches have responsibilities. Together, they are accountable to provide fair and clean competition.

It's so much simpler than you folks are making it to be.

 

[4everchan]

I have a question, is Kamila also suspended in participating in shows or any local competitions?

She is suspended, so yes. However, we have seen athletes from that same country compete while they weren't supposed to do so (competitive walk was an example given earlier in this thread). I doubt she will because her case is world-wide known. She was also removed from the national team.

 

[el henry]

WADA could have what we legal types call a "rebuttable presumption". *Particularly * for minor athletes.

If your athlete is doped, the presumption is that you as the coach were responsible for monitoring your athlete. Supplements, pills, vitamins, nostrums, snake oil, whatever.

Now, are some athletes going to run wild despite their coach? Of course. Frank Carroll was not responsible for and could not have stopped Christopher Bowman's cocaine addiction. But Frank would have been able to show, I'm not supplying the coke, no one on my team is supplying the coke, a doctor paid for by USOC did not give him coke, and further I tried my best to help him, here's what I did. So the presumption would have been rebutted.

If all you can show is, nope, that's shady Doc Shvetsky's doing, not me, I don't know: well no, good try, not working we are going to put the responsibility on you to monitor a doc you have sitting in the KnC. I think it could be done.

 

[TallyT]

Because on her WADA file, she would have to state who her coach is. I feel like some are trying to make this complicated. I am throwing a wish in here, of course details would be worked out. I simply believe that it's unfair that a young athlete gets all the blame and the entourage none.

You are perfectly right in that it isn't fair and there should be some way to hold them accountable. I am totally with you there. I am just not sure that trying to do so by employing a new rule that will immediately get sucked into a morass of legalities and legal rights and has a good chance of never getting out of that morass, is going to be the answer.

The thing is, the athlete cannot (if the testing is done right) simply deny any involvement, they can say they don't know, plead contamination or accident, but they cannot say 'it's nothing to do with me' because it's their sample, their body. The athlete is the only one where there will always be direct evidence, even if and when they manage to explain it away on appeal.

 

[4everchan]

You are perfectly right in that it isn't fair and there should be some way to hold them accountable. I am totally with you there. I am just not sure that trying to do so by employing a new rule that will immediately get sucked into a morass of legalities and legal rights and has a good chance of never getting out of that morass, is going to be the answer.

The thing is, the athlete cannot (if the testing is done right) simply deny any involvement, they can say they don't know, plead contamination or accident, but they cannot say 'it's nothing to do with me' because it's their sample, their body. The athlete is the only one where there will always be direct evidence, even if and when they manage to explain it away on appeal.

Just read the post above. This is not about legal rights but athletes and coaches abiding by wada's Code.

And that's why they are suggesting they would like stricter rules. If the rules pass, then those would be the rules to follow.

 

[saine]

Article from The Times about the case.

Travis Tygart of USADA:

“This example is exactly why we pushed for the passage of the Rodchenkov Anti-Fraud Act to be able to hold those who might be out of the sport system accountable and to leverage the investigative power of law enforcement to protect sport and athletes, especially young athletes who might be coerced into doping behaviour.”

Olivier Niggli of WADA:

Niggli said investigations would continue into Valieva’s entourage, but that they had been hampered by a lack of access caused by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

“There are many people around the athlete who could have played a role in this and obviously in this particular case they prefer to sacrifice her than to give any hint or any names,” he added.

“Explaining truly what happened and explaining the role of the entourage would have helped her a lot, but they decided not to do that, hence the tough punishment she got.”

Niggli accepts the lack of action against anyone in Valieva’s entourage was “completely and totally unsatisfactory” and said: “The risk is clear that those who are behind it will get away with it. It’s very frustrating, but it’s a matter of evidence and due process. But we will keep trying to find more evidence and if we can do something, then we will.”

Wada’s rules say anyone caught doping someone under 16 is banned for life and Niggli wants governments to bring in legislation which would make it a criminal offence. The Russian team’s explanation for Valieva’s positive test was that it was due to her eating a strawberry dessert that had been contaminated by her grandfather’s own heart medication. That claim was not accepted by Wada or CAS.