Flutz issue

tiara · Nov 22, 2007

Look at this year, how many -GOE she was recieving from flutz.

Do not worry. Yuna will be the next target for nitpicking if she beats Mao in the Worlds. Her error in the flip will also be made public.

BTW, I saw the ESPN version of Yuna's lip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyVni6nwQmY

At the end of this video, it shows Yuna's two jump combinations, the lip's and lutz's in slow motion as repeats. It shows Yuna's lip from the front angle. It is clearer that Yuna definitely took off from the outside edge in her flip,especially in slow motion. However, Paul Wylie, a TV commentator, talked a lot about her air position but nothing about her edge position in her lip. And he blurted out "back outside edge again" when he talked about her lutz. "Back outside edge again"? The word "again" indicates that Paul thought Yuna's take-off edge in her lip was also the outside. He may have noticed Yuna's outside take-off in her flip. But he was silent because he did not want to make Tracy Wilson uncomfortable. Tracy is one of Yuna's coaching staff.

ks777 · Nov 22, 2007

tiara said:
Do not worry. Yuna will be the next target for nitpicking if she beats Mao in the Worlds. Her error in the flip will also be made public.

BTW, I saw the ESPN version of Yuna's lip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyVni6nwQmY

At the end of this video, it shows Yuna's two jump combinations, the lip's and lutz's in slow motion as repeats. It shows Yuna's lip from the front angle. It is clearer that Yuna definitely took off from the outside edge in her flip,especially in slow motion. However, Paul Wylie, a TV commentator, talked a lot about her air position but nothing about her edge position in her lip. And he blurted out "back outside edge again" when he talked about her lutz. "Back outside edge again"? The word "again" indicates that Paul thought Yuna's take-off edge in her lip was also the outside. He may have noticed Yuna's outside take-off in her flip. But he was silent because he did not want to make Tracy Wilson uncomfortable. Tracy is one of Yuna's coaching staff.

I don't disagree with you or anything on Yuna's jump but Paul was saying " back outside edge. Again nice air positions." I think....when he said again, he meant the air position and not the edge.

tiara · Nov 22, 2007

ks777 said:
I don't disagree with you or anything on Yuna's jump but Paul was saying " back outside edge. Again nice air positions." I think....when he said again, he meant the air position and not the edge.

Are you sure? I hear like "Triple lutz, back outside edge again, (a little pause) great air position there, nice and tight". The word "again" is attached to "edge", not to "great".

indicatoto101 · Nov 22, 2007

From the way he said it, Paul Wylie may have referred to her edge as coming from the back outside. Or he could've meant again as in replay, like in "here's her lutz again" and possibly mixed up the words.

Mathman · Nov 22, 2007

tiara said:
Mao has been in a class of herself and seemed invincible by last season...

Mao has had an interesting career so far. She does seem invincible. And yet... in the 2005-2006 season, after a great start in the Grand Prix (a second at Cup of China and a first at Eric Bompard, before winning the GP final over Slutskaya), she then slipped to second place at Japanese Nationals and came up short at Junior Worlds.

In 2006-07 she got a third and a first in the Grand Prix, second in the GP final, and almost pulled out Worlds with a great free skate after a disappointing short.

Maybe this will be her year to dominate, flutz or no flutz

tiara said:
...the leg-up means the rule about edge judgement which favors lippers and very skillful skaters to cheat and punishes only flutzers who can not be skillfull enough to deceive judges.

I don't think the ISU makes rules just to pick on individual skaters. But your point is well taken that lips are usually harder to detect (in real time, without slow motion replays, etc.), whereas flutzes are more often blatantly obvious.

fsf9012 · Nov 22, 2007

kandidy said:
The mighty invincible athlete who couldn't land easy triple toe and salchow, most important thing, ugly FLUTZ. Look at this year, how many -GOE she was recieving from flutz. If Mao does not have triple axel, will she be invincible with 3 kinds of jumps in her repertoire?

As much as I love Mao's great skating skills, I think ISU should reward skaters who land at least 5 different triples with extra score because if you're a top skater, you can land all kinds of jump, at least you have to try whether a jump is flawed or not, except 3 axel, which is never a popular jump for ladies. Mao may have to add toe or salchow jump making the number of different jumps, and I'm fine with it.

I saw some clips of Yu-na doing 3 flip, which someone made in a slow motion at worlds in Tokyo, but I didn't see any tendency of lip in those clips. I remember her ankle looked toward outside but actually her edge looked flat to me when she picked a toe. What's interesting was that most skaters' leg is straight to the inside when taking off flip jump, Yu-na's not. She leans her body toward inside edge but her ankle doens't, so I thought that made her flip look a lip to some people. Someone to provide the link?

Mathman said:
I don't think the ISU makes rules just to pick on individual skaters. But your point is well taken that lips are usually harder to detect (in real time, without slow motion replays, etc.), whereas flutzes are more often blatantly obvious.

One more thing. As you know, though flutz and lip are from a wrong edge take-off, flutz makes a jump much easier than it should if you do a flutz. I don't want to say lip is okay and it is harder than flip, but I think that's why most people make a more scrutiny into flutz than lip.

cosmos · Nov 22, 2007

fsf9012 said:
As much as I love Mao's great skating skills, I think ISU should reward skaters who land at least 5 different triples with extra score because if you're a top skater, you can land all kinds of jump, at least you have to try whether a jump is flawed or not, except 3 axel, which is never a popular jump for ladies. Mao may have to add toe or salchow jump making the number of different jumps, and I'm fine with it.

I saw some clips of Yu-na doing 3 flip, which someone made in a slow motion at worlds in Tokyo, but I didn't see any tendency of lip in those clips. I remember her ankle looked toward outside but actually her edge looked flat to me when she picked a toe. What's interesting was that most skaters' leg is straight to the inside when taking off flip jump, Yu-na's not. She leans her body toward inside edge but her ankle doens't, so I thought that made her flip look a lip to some people. Someone to provide the link?

Medusa · Nov 22, 2007

As much as I love Mao's great skating skills, I think ISU should reward skaters who land at least 5 different triples with extra score because if you're a top skater, you can land all kinds of jump, at least you have to try whether a jump is flawed or not, except 3 axel, which is never a popular jump for ladies. Mao may have to add toe or salchow jump making the number of different jumps, and I'm fine with it.

It is actually a good idea and I enjoy watching skaters who can do every jump cleanly. But it could be the begin of a new trend - if you have to be able to do every jump - shouldn't you be able to do every spin, too? For example, I do not like skaters who use the same spin everytime with just a small variation during one program. If we say that every skater has to be able to do every jump in the program - wouldn't it be coherent to say that every Lady should be able to do a Y-Spin, a layback and a Bielmann?

So including a rule like this 5-jump-rule in the CoP would give the CoP two different sides - now you have to do a certain amount of spins, spirals, footwork and jumps to win enough points to be competitive. If we start to define what jumps the skaters have to do in the free - it is like starting compulsory skating again.

fsf9012 · Nov 22, 2007

Medusa said:
So including a rule like this 5-jump-rule in the CoP would give the CoP two different sides - now you have to do a certain amount of spins, spirals, footwork and jumps to win enough points to competitive. If we start to define what jumps the skaters have to do in the free - it is like starting compulsory skating again.

I see your point, but I didn't say 'compulsory'. That's not what I meant.

It may be a good idea to give a skater extra points when s/he lands all of them clean. For example of ladies, everyone knows repeating lutz and flip makes your minimum jump score higher. However, if you're inconsistent on those jumps, you repeat other jump or maximize your score with something else(spins, spirals and step etc.) They don't always land all of them but when they land them all, judges can give them some extra points, which is to reward them, not to make it compulsory or to stop skaters from doing what they've been doing so far. Well, about flutz and lip issue, if you want to get extra points, there should be no 'e' mark, though. Actually I didn't think about too much. Just my 2 cents.

Mathman · Nov 22, 2007

Actually, at present the penalty for flutzing is so slight there is really no reason for anyone to try to improve.

For a mild flutz, you still get 5.0 points, the same as for a proper loop. Even if you take a -2 hit, that's still as much as a triple toe.

Also, there seems to be a difference of opinion among the judges about how bad is bad. Asada's "e" triple Lutz at Skate Canada received four -1's (mild flutz), four -2's (medium bad flutz) , and two -3's (awful flutz). Although the difference of opinion might have been about other features of the jump, not just the take-off edge.

Same with Ashley Wagner's two "e" Lutzes.

bekalc · Nov 22, 2007

Mathman said:
Actually, at present the penalty for flutzing is so slight there is really no reason for anyone to try to improve.

For a mild flutz, you still get 5.0 points, the same as for a proper loop. Even if you take a -2 hit, that's still as much as a triple toe.

Also, there seems to be a difference of opinion among the judges about how bad is bad. Asada's "e" triple Lutz at Skate Canada received four -1's (mild flutz), four -2's (medium bad flutz) , and two -3's (awful flutz). Although the difference of opinion might have been about other features of the jump, not just the take-off edge.

Same with Ashley Wagner's two "e" Lutzes.

Well considering the fact that Yu-na Kim and Miki Ando both have beautiful lutzs, I think it hurts Mao quite a bit. For example, Yu-na is quite capable of getting 1 point Goe, so that can be almost a 2 to 3 point difference between her and Mao. It can literally erase Mao's triple axel advantage.

Mathman · Nov 22, 2007

^ The more I look at judges' protocols, the more it seems like the winner is just whoever gets lucky and lands the majority of her jumps.

At Skate America Miki Ando's beautiful Lutz in combination was downgraded to a double, with negative GOE on top of that.

At Cup of China, Yu-na Kim's beautiful triple Lutz turned out to be a beautiful single Lutz.

Edited to add: But then again, maybe there's nothing wrong with that. It's like any sport, you don't have to hit a home run at every at-bat. Sometimes you strike out. At the end of the game you count up who scored the most runs.

gio · Nov 22, 2007

fsf9012 said:
She leans her body toward inside edge but her ankle doens't, so I thought that made her flip look a lip to some people. Someone to provide the link?

Yu Na Kim does not lip!!! She has a real flip from inside edge!

Here are two excellent videos! They are very detailed videos about flutzing and lipping and you will see Yu Na inside edge from near!

Comparing Flip and Lip
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=sSrJx1XR1IE

Comparing Lutz and Flutz
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=BQjPadp_RKc&feature=related

Take a look! It's worth it!!

Mafke · Nov 22, 2007

gio said:
Yu Na Kim does not lip!!! She has a real flip from inside edge!
Take a look! It's worth it!!

Hello wall, how's it going? How are the wife and kids?

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 22, 2007

Medusa said:
It is actually a good idea and I enjoy watching skaters who can do every jump cleanly. But it could be the begin of a new trend - if you have to be able to do every jump - shouldn't you be able to do every spin, too? For example, I do not like skaters who use the same spin everytime with just a small variation during one program. If we say that every skater has to be able to do every jump in the program - wouldn't it be coherent to say that every Lady should be able to do a Y-Spin, a layback and a Bielmann?

So including a rule like this 5-jump-rule in the CoP would give the CoP two different sides - now you have to do a certain amount of spins, spirals, footwork and jumps to win enough points to be competitive. If we start to define what jumps the skaters have to do in the free - it is like starting compulsory skating again.

What a SENIOR skater, male or female, pair or dance has to do is present the best program they are capable of. What Mao presents and what others present is telling the audience and judges, 'this is my best'. Then let the chips fall where they may. Of course, rules and regulations will enter those falling chips.

Joe

ks777 · Nov 22, 2007

Mafke said:
Hello wall, how's it going? How are the wife and kids?

LOL

silver.blades · Nov 22, 2007

Medusa said:
It is actually a good idea and I enjoy watching skaters who can do every jump cleanly. But it could be the begin of a new trend - if you have to be able to do every jump - shouldn't you be able to do every spin, too? For example, I do not like skaters who use the same spin everytime with just a small variation during one program. If we say that every skater has to be able to do every jump in the program - wouldn't it be coherent to say that every Lady should be able to do a Y-Spin, a layback and a Bielmann?

So including a rule like this 5-jump-rule in the CoP would give the CoP two different sides - now you have to do a certain amount of spins, spirals, footwork and jumps to win enough points to be competitive. If we start to define what jumps the skaters have to do in the free - it is like starting compulsory skating again.

I kind of like the idea of requiering a skater to do different types of spins as well as jumps, but I don't think it's fair to require spins like bielmann or Y-spins. Some skaters just don't have the flexability. I think it would be good to require a spin in each basic position, camel, sit, up right and layback, variations in each would count, and i think that requireing or giving a point or 2 bonus for beginning each spin with a different basic position would be a good idea as well.

tiara · Nov 22, 2007

As much as I love Mao's great skating skills, I think ISU should reward skaters who land at least 5 different triples with extra score because if you're a top skater, you can land all kinds of jump, at least you have to try whether a jump is flawed or not, except 3 axel, which is never a popular jump for ladies. Mao may have to add toe or salchow jump making the number of different jumps, and I'm fine with it.

If you proposed such a thing, I would propose the other changes. Why women's distribution of marks for jumps has to be the exact same scale as Men's? In terms of the difficulty of jumps, women's 3 axel (valued 7.5) should be at least on the same scale as men's 4 toe(9). Nowadays average men can do 3 axels. Only 3 axels for women and Quads for men have a kind of rarity which can separate the greats from average skaters. The difference between the 3 axel (valued7.5)and 3 lutz (6) is just 1.5. The difference does not justify the time and effort skaters have to put into.

I saw some clips of Yu-na doing 3 flip, which someone made in a slow motion at worlds in Tokyo, but I didn't see any tendency of lip in those clips. I remember her ankle looked toward outside but actually her edge looked flat to me when she picked a toe. What's interesting was that most skaters' leg is straight to the inside when taking off flip jump, Yu-na's not. She leans her body toward inside edge but her ankle doens't, so I thought that made her flip look a lip to some people. Someone to provide the link?

Yuna's left leg in her flip's take-off looks like 〈 shape. (viewed from the back) Her ankle is the turning point. Even she leaned inside a little bit, if her left boot were upright (perpendicular to the ice surface) like ｜shape, you could say at least that Yuna's take-off edge is the flat. Even in this case, you can not say "Yuna's take-off is the inside. " However, her boot actually leans outside like ＼ shape, so, the edge she uses in her flip take-off is always the outside.

Bennett · Nov 25, 2007

Question

How difficult would it be for a consistent fluzter to fix the flutz?

tiara · Nov 25, 2007

Bennett said:
How difficult would it be for a consistent fluzter to fix the flutz?

They would be in the same difficulty level as a consistent lipper would be to fix the lip. Though some lippers claimed they had already fixed their lips, in fact they did not fix anything, they just find a way to hide their errors from the judges' eyes. They still can not take off from the inside edge in their lips.　

Flutz issue

tiara

Match Penalty

ks777

tiara

Match Penalty

indicatoto101

Mathman

fsf9012

cosmos

Medusa

fsf9012

Mathman

bekalc

Mathman

gio

Mafke

Joesitz (RIP)

ks777

silver.blades

tiara

Match Penalty

Bennett

tiara

Match Penalty

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