Flutz issue

[gio]

We can try to make a list

-true lutz and true flip = Yamaguchi (not deep outside edge, but still lutz), Ito, Harding, Kwan (sometimes she flatted her lutz), Slutskaya (same as Kwan), Butyrskaya, Malinina, Leung, Czisny (though Alissa and Mira lip from time to time), Rochette, Ando, Kostner, Chen, E.Hughes

-true flip, but flutz = Mao Asada, Mai Asada, S.Hughes, Cohen (her flip is questionable though), Zhang, Lipinski, Bobek, Nagasu, Wagner, Pavuk

-true lutz, but lip = Arakawa (beautiful lutz), Sokolova, Meissner, Meier, Xu

What about the others?

 

[Lumi]

Susanna Pöykiö, Kiira Korpi, Jenni Vähämaa and Alisa Drei (not 100% sure about her?) all have true flip and true lutz. Lepistö hasn't done triple lutz nor triple flip cleanly in competition, but those jumps of her take off from right edge too.

 

[Mafke]

You have already admitted that Yuna is a last minute wrong-edge user. As long as Yuna uses the wrong edge even last minute, Yuna's flips can not be considered as true ones. Asada might gloat over my revelation of Yuna's hidden error.

You seem to have serious reading difficulties, perhaps some remedial classes would help?

I said changes to the flat (or of edge) at the last possible moment before takeoff dont' count in deciding if a skater is lipping or flutzing. Any such change of edge you've managed to convince yourself you perceive is totally irrelevant.

Meanwhile, I'm very curious by your claim that you're a better judge of jumping technique than Olympic Gold medalist Shizuka Arakawa who has praised Kim's flip. And if Arakawa lipped, and she did, maybe that just makes her appreciate Kim's pure flip technique all the more.
But sorry, Shizuka! tiara thinks you lack the same high qualifications for labelling jumps that they have. tiara thinks you're biased. Perhaps you could take lessons from the mighty jump specialist tiara and approach their level of expertise.

But to prove you're not a troll, let's start a different topic. Perhaps the traditional guidelines for judging spins, maybe Arakawa can learn from you on that topic as well....

And I promise this is the last time I'll respond to nonsense about Kim having a lip, please everybody hit me over the head with something if I forget.

 

[tiara]

Except Yu-na doesn't. Yu-na's lutz is discernably different from her flip.

Even though Yuna's approaches between her lutz and flip are different as you say, she uses the exact same outside edge at both take-offs. She is proved to be a lipper. However, fortunately or unfortunately she has not been caught so far because of so-called "obvious" clause in the rule.

If the offense is not "obvious," then it is up to the individual judges to decide what the GOE penalty should be, and to balance it out with other positive aspects of the jump.

However, in reality no judge dare to enforce the GOE penalty unless the Technical Speciarist does call first.

So, yes, the ISU is sending the message that a take-off from the flat, or a slight wobble onto the wrong edge at the last moment, is -- well, not OK (the judges are still supposed to take it into account in the GOE -- but at least will not receive the "e" designation and a mandatory negative GOE.

Yuna is just escaping the 'e' marks. The current rule rewards skaters who are more skillful to conceal their errors from judges' eyes. The skaters who have been received 'e' marks do not need to learn the proper use of edges, just learn how to deceive judges.

Mafke says that as long as it is a slight wobble or last minute usage, a skater is allowed to use the wrong edge take-off. According to your explanation of the rule, he is wrong. What he says is not written in the rulebook. However, the rule does not punish the last minute wrong-edge user or slight wobbler either, so it ends up like what Mafke describes as the result.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm amazed at the number of posters who agree that it's ok somewhat that the figure skater does not follow the definition of a jump, and that the definition could be changed despite its origins, Horrors, Alois is rocking in his grave from outside to inside.

Apparently, in the Senior Division, it is much too cumbersome to practice a proper lutz despite the fact that the definition is quite simple. Senior ladies, in particular have to worry about so many other things for the routine. Throwing in a wrong edge jump for a pittance penalty, is not worth the time it takes to do a back outside edge.

Joe

 

[fenway]

I'm amazed at the number of posters who agree that it's ok somewhat that the figure skater does not follow the definition of a jump, and that the definition could be changed despite its origins, Horrors, Alois is rocking in his grave from outside to inside.

Apparently, in the Senior Division, it is much too cumbersome to practice a proper lutz despite the fact that the definition is quite simple. Senior ladies, in particular have to worry about so many other things for the routine. Throwing in a wrong edge jump for a pittance penalty, is not worth the time it takes to do a back outside edge.

Joe

Exactly. I can only hope Rafael Arutunian changes his tune soon.

 

[Mathman]

Asada might gloat over my revelation of Yuna's hidden error.

The impression I get of Mao is that she doesn't spend a whole lot of time gloating over the errors of her opponents.

Quite the contrary. She seems like she is focused on her own skating, trying to be the best she can be, without worrying about what anyone else can or can't do.

At Eric Bompard she won the short program -- then spent the next ten minutes crying because she hadn't skated her best.

The other skaters? Not my problem.

 

[Mathman]

Horrors, Alois is rocking in his grave from outside to inside.

(Maybe the patent on the jump has expired, and now everyone can push his own generic substitute.)

 

[blue dog]

(Maybe the patent on the jump has expired, and now everyone can push his own generic substitute.)

The smartest way to cheat the lutz is do what Baiul did--push it to the back corner of the rink that is closest to the judges. That way, you have a smaller chance of judges seeing your flutz =P Lippers, on the other hand, don't do this, and instead put their flip in the middle.

An answer to Gio's post--

Lutzers who lip- Viktoria Volchkova

 

[blue dog]

The impression I get of Mao is that she doesn't spend a whole lot of time gloating over the errors of her opponents.

Quite the contrary. She seems like she is focused on her own skating, trying to be the best she can be, without worrying about what anyone else can or can't do.

At Eric Bompard she won the short program -- then spent the next ten minutes crying because she hadn't skated her best.

The other skaters? Not my problem.

That is the best thing to do--can you imagine how nervous you would be if you were constantly praying that people would make a mistake?! I would hate to be the first or last skater in any competition if I had that kind of mindset. If I was first, I'd watch everyone (a-la Katarina) and cross my fingers for them to make a mistake. If I were to go last, I wouldn't be able to relax if everyone skated well.

 

[tarotx]

When Michelle was younger she had a slight flutz but she fixed it but still (or did) flatz the jump some times. I think Irina Flatz her lutz from the beginning and her technique stayed pretty much the same .

I have always thought that Sasha flipped her lutz and flutzed her flip. She's weird.

 

[gio]

Susanna Pöykiö, Kiira Korpi, Jenni Vähämaa and Alisa Drei (not 100% sure about her?) all have true flip and true lutz. Lepistö hasn't done triple lutz nor triple flip cleanly in competition, but those jumps of her take off from right edge too.

The Finnish school develops good technique and basics!!!

 

[gio]

I have always thought that Sasha flipped her lutz and flutzed her flip. She's weird.

That's true. She has poor edge control, that is the reason why she flutzes and lips.

It may sound strange but she did lip. Well it's not real lipping, because her take off is always from inside edge, but if you pause the video I've posted right before she is going to pick her flip she is on outside edge. Then she immeditaly switches to flat/inside edge. She is on the outside edge for a second then in a matter of a half a second she returns on flat/inside edge and does the flip.

Weird.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sasha, Tara, maybe Caroline and Mirai are perfect examples of Rush to Greatness They all learn(ed) big tricks first and never really had to work at their flexibility. They are not like the 'old school' of Albright, Heiss. Flemming Hamil and Yamaguchi, who had to learn everything from scratch. Those 'old timers' got it right. They came in weak and went out strong!

I worry that Caroline and Mirai will be just another big fan club.

Joe

 

[blue dog]

Sasha, Tara, maybe Caroline and Mirai are perfect examples of Rush to Greatness They all learn(ed) big tricks first and never really had to work at their flexibility. They are not like the 'old school' of Albright, Heiss. Flemming Hamil and Yamaguchi, who had to learn everything from scratch. Those 'old timers' got it right. They came in weak and went out strong!

I worry that Caroline and Mirai will be just another big fan club.

Joe

I'd add Oksana Baiul on the same category. Sure, she didn't flutz, but I don't think Oksana landed a triple flip or a triple lutz without two-footing it. Of course it's easier to land a jump if you land it on two feet!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'd add Oksana Baiul on the same category. Sure, she didn't flutz, but I don't think Oksana landed a triple flip or a triple lutz without two-footing it. Of course it's easier to land a jump if you land it on two feet!

Yeah, Oksana belongs on that list. Too young, too fast. two foot jumps.
Secret to two foot landings in show skating is to sweep the free leg off the ice quickly with a nice low arababesque.

Joe

 

[qazwsx]

Meanwhile, I'm very curious by your claim that you're a better judge of jumping technique than Olympic Gold medalist Shizuka Arakawa who has praised Kim's flip.

But sorry, Shizuka! tiara thinks you lack the same high qualifications for labelling jumps that they have. tiara thinks you're biased. Perhaps you could take lessons from the mighty jump specialist tiara and approach their level of expertise.

oh you didn't know this? Figure skating is being re-defined to give Mao maximum scores. arty:arty:Coaches, technical specialists, and everyone on this board, etc.. all need to take lessons from the mighty jump specialist as well, since nobody has agreed.

Asada might gloat over my revelation of Yuna's hidden error.

enough nauseating bad taste on Mao already.

 

[tiara]

Meanwhile, I'm very curious by your claim that you're a better judge of jumping technique than Olympic Gold medalist Shizuka Arakawa who has praised Kim's flip.

I have never claimed that I am better than Shizuka in edge judgements. However, there is a strong possibility that she has not checked Yuna's lips in great detail, espesially in slow motion videos. Since Yuna's error in her flips is not so easily detected by the naked eye, Shizuka may have remained unnoticed of it. The other possibility is that she was well aware that Yuna's jump videos were displayed as good examples in ISU conferences. So, she is more likely to think that Yuna's jumping technique must be perfect. Without checking Yuna's technique by herself, she must have accepted the wide-spread misconception that Yuna's jumping technique is perfect. It is amazing that nobody in the ISU trys to find facts and everybody is so easy to accept the wide-spread misconception.

Shizuka actually did not praise Yuna's flips. She just said that Yuna is a skater who can excute both jumps, the true lutz and flip.

oh you didn't know this? Figure skating is being re-defined to give Mao maximum scores. arty:arty:Coaches, technical specialists, and everyone on this board, etc.. all need to take lessons from the mighty jump specialist as well, since nobody has agreed.

Mao has been in a class of herself and seemed invincible by last season. So, maybe the ISU trys to make the competitions more interresting by giving the less talented a leg up. The less talented includes, of course, Yuna, Ando and Meissner(all of them are lippers) and the leg-up means the rule about edge judgement which favors lippers and very skillful skaters to cheat and punishes only flutzers who can not be skillfull enough to deceive judges.

 

[Mathman]

Speaking of Arutunian's remarks, I found these interesting quotes from Tara Lipinski's coach, Richard Callaghan, in 1997.

"...this fall, Lipinski was beseiged by claims that her triple Lutz did not merit the marks it had received last year...in finishing second in Skate America (to Kwan) and Trophee Lalique (to France's Laetitia Hubert), Lipinski's techincial marks were lower than her artistic grades...Lipinski's coach, Richard Callaghan, was informed by judges that Lipinski incorrectly launches her Lutz -- judges call it a Flutz because instead of taking off from the outside edge of her skate blade, judges feel Lipinski takes off from the inside edge...

"I have a problem with the idea of Tara having a problem with the Lutz," notes Callaghan. "Because last year when she was world champion with the same Lutz, there was no problem. This year, they seem to be centering on her take-off, which maybe has a slight change of edge, but it's no different than most of her competitors"...

Kwan's coach, Frank Carroll, dismissed Callaghan's assertion that his pupil also has a Flutz...Callaghan has shorted the takeoff a bit to try to minimize the effect...

 

[kandidy]

Mao has been in a class of herself and seemed invincible by last season. So, maybe the ISU trys to make the competitions more interresting by giving the less talented a leg up. The less talented includes, of course, Yuna, Ando and Meissner.

I was knocked off the chair.
Now I know who are you siding.
The mighty invincible athlete who couldn't land easy triple toe and salchow, most important thing, ugly FLUTZ. Look at this year, how many -GOE she was recieving from flutz. If Mao does not have triple axel, will she be invincible with 3 kinds of jumps in her repertoire? Don't get me wrong, I did not hate Mao, I like her, but I could not stop laughing at your statement.