Coaches proposals 16-21: GOEs, PCSs, Jumbotron and pairs

mskater93 · May 26, 2008

The only problem is that skaters don't state what level they are expecting on spins and spirals on the PPCS, they only state the generic what it is, which would actually be better unless the base values were listed next to them. In PPCS shorthand it would look something like this:
Planned Elements:
4S
3A-2T-2Lo
4T
4T-3T
3Lz
CCoSp
SlStSeq
FCSSp
3A
3F-3T
3S
CoSp
FCCoSp
SeStSeq

ChrisH · May 26, 2008

Mafke said:
16. Define the values of GoE points

The proposal is to revise the Scale of Values tables to use the following instead (rounded to the nearest 0.1 point):

* - 3 is 25% of base value
* - 2 is 50% of base value
* - 1 is 75% of base value
* 0 is 100% of base value
* + 1 is 125% of base value
* + 2 is 150% of base value
* + 3 is 175% of base value

This proportional approach solves other mathematical problems in the system. For example, the relative value of every element currently varies with each element and GoE. Under this proposal the relative value of all elements stays the same for each GoE.

This proposal really simplifies things and seems to keep the scoring as accurate as it currently is if not even more accurate. At first thought, the 175% bonus might be too high for the bigger jumps, but then again, the judges could assign the +3 if they really thought it deserved such a big bonus. I like everything else about the proposal.

As a side effect, perhaps the skaters would take double jumps more seriously knowing that they could get such huge bonuses or deductions.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 27, 2008

A jump should include proper edge takeoff, good posture in the air (I really don't know of anyone with bad posture who didn't fall or screw up the jump otherwise) and of course proper landing. Important, all with flow and hopefully to the music. This, imo, would give the skater the correct base value. Failing any of these parts to a jump should be considered a serious flaw and reflected in the GoEs.

The judges should not have a problem with that. The steps leading up to a jump other than crossovers as well as a long undue entry to the jump should be reflected + or - in the GoEs., and not too seriously, imo.

Once the jump is completed, the skater should be able to make the exit from the jump with good flow into whatever comes next in the routine. Does the skater have the skill to do that? and should it also be relected in the PCS scores as well?

Joe

ChrisH · May 31, 2008

17. Reduce the number of the Program Components to a maximum of three, with the marks ranging from 0 to 6, marked to the nearest 1/10th of a point ...

I seem to agree with this proposal the most.

* Skating Skills, Transitions and Linking Movements
* Performance and Execution
* Choreography and Interpretation

I thought that the performance/execution PC was the most important one and the coaches seem to agree.

Performance / Execution

* Personal Involvement
(Includes projection, physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement)
* Carriage and Clarity of Movement
(Clarity and control of positions and movements)
* Variety and Contrast
* Effortless movements in time to the music

And I believe the coaches added "variety and contrast" to the PCs while removing some of the less important ones. I thought that "originality" needed to be explicitly added to the PCs and this just about does it. :clap:

They wisely, IMO, left in "carriage". "Clarity of movement" also sounds good. I like it when skaters who hold quality positions longer.

Mathman · May 31, 2008

ChrisH said:
17. Reduce the number of the Program Components to a maximum of three, with the marks ranging from 0 to 6, marked to the nearest 1/10th of a point ...

Click to expand...

I seem to agree with this proposal the most.

The interesting thing is that this (the part in bold) is exactly what they did under the old 6.0 judging. Scores range from 0 to 6 with tenth-of-a-point gradation.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 31, 2008

Let's face it no matter what the scores are for the PCS, they were arrived at by:

1, What difficult elements did one show in the Technical, and were there any under rotations in jumping?

2. Did the Arena crowd like the performance, bearing in mind the home crowd?

3. Did the judge agree with the Arena crowd or was there another skater who gave him/her more enjoyment?

My feelingsabout the PCS scores have not changed that much from the 6.0 system. It will always be based on a) personal taste, and b) nationality. Maybe also on personal behaviour of the skater outside the sport.

When you think about the styles of the skaters, is it not true that you are affected by that style? Think Plushenko, Lambiel, Buttle. You know which one you prefer and you know what it is about the one that makes you beam when he wins.

Joe

antmanb · Jun 2, 2008

Mafke said:
21. Death spirals.

Definition: In all death spirals the man skates on a backward outside edge in a deep pivot position with his legs well bent while the lady skates around him on one foot with the body very close to the surface of the ice. The man holds one hand of the lady with one hand. Minimum 2 full revolutions of the lady while the man remains is in deep pivot position.

Base value of death spirals:

* Backward outside: base value 4.5
* Backward inside: base value 3.5
* Forward outside: base value 4.0
* Forward inside: base value 3.5

But the forward outside death spiral is far more difficult than any of the other death spirals. I think the order of difficulty for the death spirals should be

1. FO
2. BO
3. FI
4. BI

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 2, 2008

What the Jumbotron could show is an Instant Replay of the take offs of various jumps if the are questionable.

Joe

fairly4 · Jun 2, 2008

personally they should get rid of the GOE's why, that is where the cheating comes in, why the judges have a varied range. beside every one is human and they all have different perspectives on how they see things.

for example did you know the robin szolwky got high goes even though they fell and is related to annette potzch one the judges/technical specialist.

Mathman · Jun 2, 2008

fairly4 said:
personally they should get rid of the GOE's why, that is where the cheating comes in, why the judges have a varied range. beside every one is human and they all have different perspectives on how they see things.

True. But without the Second Mark and its attendant judging idiosyncrasies, figure skating would be just another sport.

antmanb · Jun 2, 2008

fairly4 said:
for example did you know the robin szolwky got high goes even though they fell and is related to annette potzch one the judges/technical specialist.

Which competition are you referring to?

At worlds Annette Poetzch was not on the technical panel or the judging panel in either program. Furthermore the only actual fall (as opposed to the step outs) that occurred was on the SBS triple salchows in the free program, for which they were uniformly given -3 in the GOE http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2008/WC08_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

Ant

antmanb · Jun 2, 2008

Mathman said:
True. But without the Second Mark and its attendant judging idiosyncrasies, figure skating would be just another sport.

I think fairly4 was talking about the GOEs rather than the PCS.

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 2, 2008

Mathman said:
True. But without the Second Mark and its attendant judging idiosyncrasies, figure skating would be just another sport.

Nothing wrong with being another Sport. It isn't a ballet, that's for sure.

Joe

vlaurend · Jun 3, 2008

Joesitz said:
Let's face it no matter what the scores are for the PCS, they were arrived at by:

1, What difficult elements did one show in the Technical, and were there any under rotations in jumping?

2. Did the Arena crowd like the performance, bearing in mind the home crowd?

3. Did the judge agree with the Arena crowd or was there another skater who gave him/her more enjoyment?

Are you speaking as someone who is a trained figure skating judge, or as a spectator who assumes judges only see what you see?

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 3, 2008

vlaurend said:
Are you speaking as someone who is a trained figure skating judge, or as a spectator who assumes judges only see what you see?

Just from observation over a very long period of time. Judges are human and have human feelings. It did not mean ALL judges.

Do you think judges will alllow a Jumbotron to show underrotations as they happen?

Joe

Coaches proposals 16-21: GOEs, PCSs, Jumbotron and pairs

mskater93

ChrisH

Joesitz (RIP)

ChrisH

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

fairly4

Mathman

antmanb

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

vlaurend

Joesitz (RIP)

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