Lutai arrested for car theft

plushyta · Nov 19, 2009

janetfan said:
Did you ever hear of President Nixon? Baseball star Pete Rose?
Were you even awake during the Clinton years?

You said "we" and implied "our laws" like you are an American. Your attitude is fine and respectful and I am glad to read your posts. But in all honesty you don't sound like you have much understanding of American law or culture.

That is OK and I don't mean it makes you a better or worse person.

I just find that your remarks show no understanding of a society with a free press. It is not a philosophical disagreement - just a total lack of any basic awareness of America society.

I can't imagine what your comments and ideas are based on.

I say that respectfully but with a bit of bewilderment.

I do not know, how the tone of my post could interpret, given that I do not handle all the nuances of the english language - sorry if I offended someone... :rolleye:

... BUT, I do not think that should allow cameras to enter the courtroom.

So I ask, is still allowed to enter the cameras, since I have seen (in movies

), that in some trials showing an official painters, not photographers? :scratch:

If from my post emerges hostility toward the U.S. media - I'm sorry, but all American journalists is not Bernstein & Woodward :frown2: ... and I do not like any yellow press, either in the country that is!

Dodhiyel · Nov 19, 2009

Ptichka said:
...Last I checked, we have a presumption of innocence in this country. I can see how you can argue for public humiliation for a convicted felon, but in our system until he IS convicted, it is as if he were innocent.

I rather like Ptichka's summation of the real U.S. rule: presumed innocent until *proven* guilty. That is the bottom line, after all. Judgement, whether by jury, by judge, or by the public, should follow that proof, not precede it. Of course, there will always be some who prefer the lynching party approach.

janetfan · Nov 19, 2009

plushyta said:
I do not know, how the tone of my post could interpret, given that I do not handle all the nuances of the english language - sorry if I offended someone... ... BUT, I do not think that should allow cameras to enter the courtroom.

So I ask, is still allowed to enter the cameras, since I have seen (in movies ), that in some trials showing an official painters, not photographers? :scratch:

If from my post emerges hostility toward the U.S. media - I'm sorry, but all American journalists is not Bernstein & Woodward :frown2: ... and I do not like any yellow press, either in the country that is!

I apologize if I sounded too harsh.
Yes, cameras are allowed in coutrooms for many cases but not all.
Sometimes a judge can decide, other times there can be laws if it involves things like national security.

Recently, we had a US skater named Nicole Bobek arrested on criiminal charges. She is a former US Champion amd World medalist.
She is not famous in the USA except to skating fans. Many posters here know of her and saw the articles and "mug shot" pics of Nicole.

I can't recall one post from people now complaining about Lutai's "barbaric" treatment that showed concern for Nicole.
Sorry this feels very politcal to me.

Hsuhs · Nov 19, 2009

janetfan said:
now complaining about Lutai's "barbaric" treatment that showed concern for Nicole.

I don't recall videos of Nicole wearing chains and jaildress to the courtroom. Were there any?

The fact that that kind of treatment of Lutai may appear barbaric to some from other parts of the world - you have to accept it, I'm afraid.

plushyta · Nov 19, 2009

janetfan said:
I apologize if I sounded too harsh.
Yes, cameras are allowed in coutrooms for many cases but not all....

I can't recall one post from people now complaining about Lutai's "barbaric" treatment that showed concern for Nicole.
Sorry this feels very politcal to me.

Yes, you were a bit harsh, but no problem

My point is that, unfortunately, a lot of bad journalists (ie, bad people) use advantage of the "free press", only to be turned other people's lives into hell. That I call "vulturous culture", and overcoming every good measure and civilization behavior :frown2:... and this is, certainly, not freedom of expression.
So, should be very cautious against to journalists.

As "barbaric treatment" ... you have to understand, that chains are not "common" in Europe, so that people were shocked :eek:

If he even and the murderer, he must not disparage - chains are a just symbol of humiliation for me, as for every human creature

... I do not have to remind you of the lessons from history?

janetfan · Nov 19, 2009

Hsuhs said:
I don't recall videos of Nicole wearing chains and jaildress to the courtroom. Were there any?

The fact that that kind of treatment of Lutai may appear barbaric to some from other parts of the world - you have to accept it, I'm afraid.

Not a problem - and of course I accept uninformed opinions or I wouldn't be posting on this thread. And of course there can be "cultural differences."

I do hope we get good video of Lutai's lynching party

Back to reality:
I don't normally care about this type of stuff, but there were Nicole posts here for a couple of weeks, and yes, there was a terrible pic of her - the one I referred to as a "mug shot." She looked like she was drugged out, no makeup and I believe she was in prison clothing. Maybe someone else remembers.

I don't know how Nicole's legal problems turmed out and I don't recall hearing anything more about it

Hsuhs · Nov 19, 2009

janetfan said:
I don't know how Nicole's legal problems turmed out and I don't recall hearing anything more about it

Acc to Wiki she isn't convicted yet.

I remember seeing Nicole's mug shot some time ago if not here, then on some other board/ blog, yes.

Did you notice Andrei wasn't wearing any makeup either, in that vid / mug shot? But he does look fresher (compared to poor Nicole), wouldn't you agree? Those long long lashes.

mycelticblessing · Nov 19, 2009

janetfan said:
There has been nothing written in the papers where I live. I have seen or heard nothing about this on TV and I have CNN or MSNBC on all day.

Lutai is hardly famous as a skater, let alone as a big sporting celebrity . He is virtually unknown in the USA. Since his arrest he is still unknown.

And yes, it is very common for alleged criminals , once they are arrested to be photographed and to have news stories written about them.

Sorry if you prefer a secret society but we dont. No one told this kid to act like a criminal. I hope it is a misunderstanding. Even if he is guilty I hope they go easy and just send him home.

My gosh, how is he a VICTIM. We should all be happy he didn't kill anyone.

There have been alot of articles online. I suppose it may not be that big a case then if nothing has been printed on the local papers.

I am not calling Lutai a victim. I hope that was not how it came across from my post. I just wanted to find out if the treatment that he has been rendered thus far is the norm for alleged criminals because I have read from other forums that the $100,000 bail seems to be higher than the norm.

Ptichka · Nov 20, 2009

By being arrested a defendant has to pay some of the consequnces for their actions.
...
just find that your remarks show no understanding of a society with a free press.

You are suggesting that being arrested is a crime in and of itself. So, if police mistakes me for some criminal and arrests me - I have to pay the consequences?! Additionally, it's more than just "humiliation" - just ask Richard Jewell, whose life has been ruined after he's been pointed to as the Atlanta Olympics bomber. There are plenty of countries that have free press (you're right, I'm certainly not talking about Eastern Europe) yet manage to offer detainees just a bit more protection.

Tonichelle · Nov 20, 2009

plushyta said:
I wonder, if they would display on the same way and some American skater (or any other USA public figure)? :scratch: ... ie - would be and SHOULD be allowed cameras in the courtroom, by American law?!

Tonya Harding, or (more recently) Nicole Bobek ring any bells? Yes they get the same treatment... possibly worse as they are American skating princesses, not some random MALE skater from Russia.

sillylionlove · Nov 20, 2009

Hsuhs said:
I don't recall videos of Nicole wearing chains and jaildress to the courtroom. Were there any?

The fact that that kind of treatment of Lutai may appear barbaric to some from other parts of the world - you have to accept it, I'm afraid.

This was probably because Nicole was not in the skating spotlight at the time. She kind of dropped off the radar. Lutai is trying for and Olympic team. But FYI..here in New Jersey, Nicole was all over the news.

antmanb · Nov 20, 2009

janetfan said:
I disagree and you are not conceptually correct..
I have said in several earlier posts I hope this works out for Lutai. I even hope they go easy on him. He is young enough in my book to make a mistake and I hope he gets home ASAP.

But innocent until proven guilty is one thing. It sets USA apart from many other countries. But it never said if an Officer of the Law catches someone in an illegal activity they have a right to privacy. Never, and no way. You are not even close to being right about this. By being arrested a defendant has to pay some of the consequnces for their actions. They may be photographed by the press (did you ever hear of a fellow named "OJ Simpson"?) and newspapers and television reporters are legally able to write stories about arrests of common citizens, athletes and politicians.

You seem to be confused about being arrested and being convicted. There is a tremendous difference. There is also a very vigorous Free Press in USA as opposed to many Eastern European countries.

Maybe you are not so aware of this, but there has been a big effort in many of our states to intentionally embarrass and humiliate drunken drivers.

The whole point is that drunken drivers injure and kill people. They destroy property. I am sure Lutai is not an idiot and knows that in most countries taking a car for a "joyride" and drunken driving are illegal activities.

I think anyone who cares about this talented skater hopes this "humiliation" is something he will remember. I hope he won't pull such an idiotic stunt again.

But equally the point that you are making has missed the "innocent until proven guilty part" your post presuposes that he was (a) drunk and (b) stole a car. Until a jury convicts him of those actions it is wrong to refer to him without any doubt as having done (or committed) those actions (or crimes).

If a jury finds him not guilty of any crimes, is the public humiliation suffered after arrest but before aquital still fair enough?

Ant

janetfan · Nov 20, 2009

antmanb said:
But equally the point that you are making has missed the "innocent until proven guilty part" your post presuposes that he was (a) drunk and (b) stole a car. Until a jury convicts him of those actions it is wrong to refer to him without any doubt as having done (or committed) those actions (or crimes).

If a jury finds him not guilty of any crimes, is the public humiliation suffered after arrest but before aquital still fair enough?

Ant

Good and fair points - only if we can all agree "life is fair."

antmanb · Nov 20, 2009

janetfan said:
Good and fair points - only if we can all agree "life is fair."

Life isn't fair but a legal system should strive to be otherwise what 's the point in having one?

Ant

janetfan · Nov 20, 2009

antmanb said:
Life isn't fair but a legal system should strive to be otherwise what 's the point in having one?

Ant

Again good points which I am sure all can agree with,

But it is the media and it's access to alleged criminals that was under fire.

I think it can be regretful in instances when an alleged criminal gets too much publicity. Even a guilty person could be said to deserve better treatment.

As far as I know, the tabloids are 10 times worse in certaincountries, which you, living in England must certainly be aware of.

I have seen nothing about Lutai exceot for an article in the very local Adirondack area newspapers. I may have missed it but have seen nothing about him on CNN or even ESPN.

He is just a totally invisible person and legal case in the USA.

To disagree about the media's role in criminal investigations feels like a topic for a different board as I see little relevance to Lutai's skating being involved.

Internet chatter is a more recent phenomenon and can be very difficult to control.
In China and perhaps Russia the governments actively regulate internet access just as they limit free press and have powerful control over what is broadcast.

Given a choice between this type of government regulation I have to say I greatly prefer the gossip and occassional humiliation an alleged criminal may have to "put up with" as opposed to limiting freedom.

And it feels to me that Lutai is being treated fairly and I suspect the charges, whether true or not will be dismissed or dropped down to a very minor level in order to get him home.

If the picture of Lutai in prison garb and manacles feels brutal and unfair to his fans or general skating fans then I can respect those views even as I find them overly dramatic and extremely over hyped
But that is just my opinion. I have seen many criminals and alleged criminals on TV or in the papers that way so maybe I am just used to it..

dorispulaski · Nov 20, 2009

For those who doubt that ordinary (innocent) citizens are treated this way in the US, refer to this discussion in the politics folder archive. Professor Gates was handcuffed by Officer Crowley. The whole thing was filmed, pictures were shot and it was talked to death by everyone, including Pres. Obama.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28470

snowflake · Nov 20, 2009

janetfan said:
If the picture of Lutai in prison garb and manacles feels brutal and unfair to his fans or general skating fans then I can respect those views even as I find them overly dramatic and extremely over hyped
But that is just my opinion. I have seen many criminals and alleged criminals on TV or in the papers that way so maybe I am just used to it..

Exactly. That's why I reacted badly. Because I am not used to it.

In my European country he would never been shown like this. He would have worn his own clothes and been allowed to hide his head with a jacket while the press were taking pictures and film him. I think this is fair because it happens that people are accused or crimes, even murder, found not guilty and been released in a couple of days.

So as pointed out, different cultures. This is how it is done in the state of New York, and I have to accept that. The press though I believe is the same all over the world. It always digs up all sort of spectacular things about the accused person and his/hers family and friends and publish what they want to sell papers.

What does alleged mean? A suspect in custody?

janetfan · Nov 20, 2009

snowflake said:
Exactly. That's why I reacted badly. Because I am not used to it.

In my European country he would never been shown like this. He would have worn his own clothes and been allowed to hide his head with a jacket while the press were taking pictures and film him. I think this is fair because it happens that people are accused or crimes, even murder, found not guilty and been released in a couple of days.

So as pointed out, different cultures. This is how it is done in the state of New York, and I have to accept that. The press though I believe is the same all over the world. It always digs up all sort of spectacular things about the accused person and his/hers family and friends and publish what they want to sell papers.

What does alleged mean? A suspect in custody?

Good post and thanks for sharing your views.
Yes, "alleged" means under suspicion of commiting a crime.

A skating fan might also refer to Parick Chan's "alleged quad" meaning there might be talk about it but he has yet to prove he can do it in competition.

Also, Plushy's alleged transitions, Evan's alleged musicality, and so forth.

gkelly · Nov 20, 2009

snowflake said:
What does alleged mean? A suspect in custody?

alleged = accused but not proven or convicted

Newspapers have to qualify accusations like that all the time -- they can't just say that someone did something if it hasn't been legally proven yet

antmanb · Nov 20, 2009

janetfan said:
Again good points which I am sure all can agree with,

But it is the media and it's access to alleged criminals that was under fire.

And if certain rules were put in place about reporting of arrests, then that would do the trick. In this country the media has to tread very carefully when reporting arrests etc so as not to unfairly prejudice the public who may be called upon to be on a jury and make a ruling on the crime.

janetfan said:
As far as I know, the tabloids are 10 times worse in certaincountries, which you, living in England must certainly be aware of.

The tabloids always are worse, but i'm not sure what it does to point that out, other than allow you to be extra condescending

Ant

Lutai arrested for car theft

plushyta

Dodhiyel

janetfan

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Hsuhs

plushyta

janetfan

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Hsuhs

mycelticblessing

Ptichka

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Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

sillylionlove

antmanb

janetfan

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dorispulaski

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snowflake

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