Lutai arrested for car theft

Dodhiyel's link does include some disturbing facts. It looks like they are not going to drop the theft charges, which are more problematic legally than the DUI. Usually first-time DUIs are dealt with fairly leniently, and people are not held in custody for very long. Obviously there's a world of difference between a DUI in your own car and a DUI in a car you are alleged to have stolen. This part of the link is particularly troubling-

With the felonies still pending, Barrett said Lutai may not be able to leave the country as he had planned to do today.

"An Immigrations and Customs Enforcement detainer would be placed on him," Barrett told the judge. "He'll be taken into immigration custody. He'll be taken to the Batavia Federal Detention Center and it's my experience in dealing with them down there, it is very draconious."

I think most people would agree this guy is not a hardened criminal. I find it really worrying that he could end up in a place like this. Do an investigation, bring him to trial, and punish him legally if convicted. But I don't see how holding him in a Federal Detention Center will do anybody any good.

Wicked, but the Immigration Detention Centers have long been a dirty little secret that everyone knows about. It's full of people who are awaiting deportation either because they've already paid for their crimes, or because their only crime is being in this country illegally. In many cases, their home countries won't take them, or we can't send them there because they are certain to be killed in that case - essentially, this turns those situations into life sentences...

OK, I wonder when the right time will be to move this thread to the Politics Forum... :think:

Tonichelle said:

Tonya Harding, or (more recently) Nicole Bobek ring any bells? Yes they get the same treatment... possibly worse as they are American skating princesses, not some random MALE skater from Russia.

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Really? Show and them on television, with chains on hands and legs?

janetfan said:

... Given a choice between this type of government regulation I have to say I greatly prefer the gossip and occassional humiliation an alleged criminal may have to "put up with" as opposed to limiting freedom.
...

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For the gossip, media is not required
.... "occassional humiliation" ... to me, look like a bit on this saying: "Better to execute ten innocent men, than to leave one guilty man alive" (Feliks Dzerzhinsky, founder of the Soviet secret police)

janetfan said:

.But that is just my opinion. I have seen many criminals and alleged criminals on TV or in the papers that way so maybe I am just used to it..

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I think - too much for your "health" (it just proves my assertion, that should not run such things - people become "indifferent")

janetfan said:

Our tabloids can be brutal but the truth is we don't have nearly as many as they do in other countries. That of course is because most Americans are unable to read

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Are you sure, that in the tablods has and 5% of the truth?

janetfan said:

Yes, there is an intentional thought to humiliate drunken drivers in many parts of the USA.

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pippa said:

J...There were a number of cases in recent years in which prisoners being transported to and from court grabbed guards' guns and killed people, ....

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No comments :-X

janetfan said:

We don't want to celebrate or pamper these people - just the opposite.
We also don't celebrate child molesters either although I can think of a few who are treated like heroes in Europe because they are celebrities.

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You hint at Polanski?... Come on, do not now shift the "blame" to other countries

janetfan said:

... Who in America even knows about this besides skating fans and people in the teenie weenie village of Lake Placid?
....
The humiliation factor may be real but it is primarily between Lutai and the few people - maybe 12 or so - in Lake Placid involved in handling his case.

Oh, I forgot to mention GS posters!....

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Well, know almost all those, who go to watch skating, and it is in this kind of sport-art - this is enough, to destroy his reputation, even if he proves his innocence.
On the other hand, you're totally right, as regards us, as commentators in the public forum....

janetfan said:

We have many bad traits,,,,,,,,but hey, nobody is perfect and it is not so easy trying to lead the way in such a dysfunctional world.

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You dont must receive all this so "personally", and not need still to "defend" your country Janet
No one here does not "attack" her (we only comment on the appearance, which by us are not good). You need to "fix" it, if you see something wrong with her :yes:

Dodhiyel said:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/509843.html?nav=5008

... This one has details about the surprising behaviour of some persons of authority in this matter, which I hope everyone interested in this case will read...

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I'm not the best understood: the prosecutor is engaged in politics... and she has not come to today trial, without any explanation? He will be over weekends transferred to a prison (Batavia Federal Detention Center), with already convicted criminals?!
Why, because of the mistakes of the prosecutor, the trial was not interrupted? Why Lutai has to suffer, for the political "ambitions" of others? :banging:
... let someone correct me, if I am wrong :scowl:

Plushyta, the prosecutor isn't persecuting Lutai out of some political ambition, for heaven's sake. Lutai stole a car and drove drunk (sorry, but his lawyer's story of him being a victim of a spiked drink is absurd - you can't get a blood alcohol content of .18% without knowing you are drinking one heck of a lot of alcohol).He is getting the same treatment anyone else would under the circumstances. This isn't even a major news story here in the US - it is highly unlikely that the Lake Placid police and district attorney's office think they can enhance their political positions by prosecuting a skater who is completely unknown to 99.999% of Americans, with a case that only die-hard skating fans in the US are even aware of.

Lutai is not being persecuted - he is suffering the consequences of his own actions. BTW, Nicole Bobek also had her mug shot released to the media, as well as video of her in prison garb at her arraignment hearing.

Your Polanski statement is off-topic, but with all due respect, he raped a 13-year-old girl. Please do not dismiss that by saying "he did not molest the starlet, only slept with her" followed by a cute little winking smilie. That is offensive - the child was drugged and did NOT consent to sex. She was anally raped against her will, and she was too young to legally have sex with an adult (he was only prosecuted for statutory rape to save a traumatized child from testifying - she has always maintained that she said NO). Nor was she a "starlet" - just a child who thought she was going to be photographed by a famous director. It is just disgusting the way so many people give a grown man a little "wink and nod" for raping a child because he is famous.

pippa said:

Plushyta, the prosecutor isn't persecuting Lutai out of some political ambition, for heaven's sake. Lutai stole a car and drove drunk (sorry, but his lawyer's story of him being a victim of a spiked drink is absurd - you can't get a blood alcohol content of .18% without knowing you are drinking one heck of a lot of alcohol)....

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... but this trial has the media and political (international) background .. therefore, I do not see, why and she would not be seen some political point in it?
How do you know, how much is its percentage? :scratch:

pippa said:

Your Polanski statement is off-topic, but with all due respect, he raped a 13-year-old girl. ....

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Sorry - my mistake... wrong smile, and I did not know all the details... sorry

I think we should take note of the fact that the DA and judge in Lake Placid are apparently trying to "pass the buck" for some reason, which I find particularly frightening. Details of that are in the article. Here's a sample: "Complicating matters further, no one from the district attorney's office showed up for the hearing."

Another thing: this may seem small potatoes in the US news to some, but it is quite another thing in the Russian news. Andrey Lutay came in third in Russian Nationals, and the reason he made a poor showing at Skate America, is that he did not receive his skates, which had mysteriously disappeared,until an incredibly short time before he had to compete. He got all of 15 minutes in which to practice, I have read, and he still did not come in last. The Russian public therefore seems to be quite interested in what is going on here, in this case. There are articles about it in Russian all over the Net. This is not a small potatoes case; it is an "international incident".

I think this case is apt to have long-term international repercussions, and all because someone foolish left their keys in the ignition.

Was it the garage that did that? Or was it the car's apparently careless, but now apparently vengeful, owner? Did two girls invite a foreigner to go riding with them in a car that seemed to him to belong to them? If so, then the girls would be the ones who stole the car. Or might one of the girls have been related to the owner of the car, and felt entitled to be riding in it? If this whole thing turns out to be a big fat mistake, it will be too late to say, "Gee, sorry about that.", especially if Andrey gets physically mistreated in some detention center by a fellow inmate there.

In 2014, US athletes will be going to Sochi, Russia. They had better be very careful to mind their p's and q's after this fiasco, because I am quite sure that Russia will remember Lake Placid, 2009.

plushyta said:

... but this trial has the media and political (international) background .. therefore, I do not see, why and she would not be seen some political point in it?
How do you know, how much is its percentage? :scratch:

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The district attorney's office decides whether or not to prosecute cases - the district attorney in Lake Placid gains no political advantage from prosecuting a skater who is completely unknown in this country. Lutai's arrest has received very little media coverage in the US - it is likely getting a lot more in Russia, but the media in Russia offers no advantage to the DA of a small American town. It is not of international importance, either - it may be important to skating fans and the Russian tabloids, but it is hardly big news all over the world. It's not like the US government is going to take an interest in something like this as if it is some kind of international incident. It isn't.

Lutai broke the law in Lake Placid, so the Lake Placid authorities are prosecuting him. There is no reason for them not to, just because he is an athlete and a foreigner.

As for his blood alcohol content, it was first reported to be .18%, and later reported by the police as "more than twice the legal limit". Since the legal limit in New York is .08%, it has to be at least .17% to be more than twice the legal limit.

Fairness

Well, this is an interesting post thus far.

If these accusations are true, then it is unfortunate that Andrey Lutai has committed such acts. It is even more unfortunate that a judge did not supersede the authority of a District Attorney and deal with this matter more expediently.

The facts are that Lutai does not drink, he does not have a previous criminal record like some skaters mentioned on this post, and he comes from a stable, respectable family. He has been a good student and an asset to his community. His reputation in St. Petersburg is exemplary. If he did commit these crimes, which remains undetermined by the court, then it is not his typical behavior.

Lutai more than likely will be transferred to a federal detention center because his visa expired. He has no previous criminal record, and if the DA was present in court this could have been prevented. The felony charge could have been reinstated at a later date and Lutai’s lawyer could have represented him in his absence.

Janetfan has spent a lot of time on this thread delineating what is or is not fair, humiliating, culturally relative or newsworthy. This has caused some to neglect the facts and, as Janetfan has kindly shared with us, the few US articles available on the subject. Much focus has been placed upon US news sources, and the fact that this is an international issue has been largely ignored. It is getting more attention in St. Petersburg and Moscow than it is by the Adirondack Press or bankrupt Philadelphia presses.

It should be noted that turn-about is fair play, and as it has been noted on this thread “fairness” is subjective. In slightly more than four years an entire US delegation of athletes will settle into Sochi. Olympic villages can become “interesting places” where many (potentially illegal) things happen. Sochi is a lovely resort city that I am sure they will enjoy, maybe even to excess.

If an athlete does commit a crime and enters the Russian juridical process, then I can only suspect that there will not be so much justification for handcuffs, chains, or jail-time occurring. As Janetfan noted, that athlete will be painted as such a “VICTIM” (original author’s emphasis) of Russian cruelty, and then when it is “one of our own” it will become an international event. After all, Sochi is a resort city, not a serene village like Lake Placid.

If this offends posters of this forum- then I do apologize. However, I have shared truth and tried to be equitable.

Dodhiyel said:

I think we should take note of the fact that the DA and judge in Lake Placid are apparently trying to "pass the buck" for some reason, which I find particularly frightening. Details of that are in the article. Here's a sample: "Complicating matters further, no one from the district attorney's office showed up for the hearing."

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It is not uncommon for no one from the DA's office to show up in a pretrial hearing like this.

Dodhiyel said:

Another thing: this may seem small potatoes in the US news to some, but it is quite another thing in the Russian news. Andrey Lutay came in third in Russian Nationals, and the reason he made a poor showing at Skate America, is that he did not receive his skates, which had mysteriously disappeared,until an incredibly short time before he had to compete. He got all of 15 minutes in which to practice, I have read, and he still did not come in last. The Russian public therefore seems to be quite interested in what is going on here, in this case. There are articles about it in Russian all over the Net. This is not a small potatoes case; it is an "international incident".

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Um, no, it is not. Just because it is big news in Russia does not make it an "international incident". A Russian guy got drunk and stole a car, which he then drove drunk, and he is being prosecuted accordingly. The Russian government has not gotten involved, nor has the US government or any other government. Just because the Russian tabloids are excited does not make something an international incident.

Also, his skates did not "mysteriously disappear". They were lost by the airline, which is something that has unfortunately happened to a large number of skaters (including American, Canadian and Asian skaters on their way to competitions) since the new regulations following the 9/11 attacks were instituted and skaters can no longer carry their skates with them on airplanes. It is unfortunate, but no mystery and no conspiracy.

Dodhiyel said:

I think this case is apt to have long-term international repercussions, and all because someone foolish left their keys in the ignition.

Was it the garage that did that? Or was it the car's apparently careless, but now apparently vengeful, owner? Did two girls invite a foreigner to go riding with them in a car that seemed to him to belong to them? If so, then the girls would be the ones who stole the car. Or might one of the girls have been related to the owner of the car, and felt entitled to be riding in it? If this whole thing turns out to be a big fat mistake, it will be too late to say, "Gee, sorry about that.", especially if Andrey gets physically mistreated in some detention center by a fellow inmate there.

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Blaming the victim is ridiculous here. And no one has said the keys were in the ignition - it was parked outside a garage in a small town, and it is common in such low-crime areas for mechanics to leave the keys under the visor so the owner can pick the car up. That does not give anyone the right to get drunk and steal it, endangering other lives by driving drunk.

Your other scenarios blaming everyone but Lutai for his actions are all made-up rumor, as is your conjecture about him being mistreated by another inmate.

Dodhiyel said:

In 2014, US athletes will be going to Sochi, Russia. They had better be very careful to mind their p's and q's after this fiasco, because I am quite sure that Russia will remember Lake Placid, 2009.

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Excuse me, but that sounds like a very ugly and unneccessary threat. Are you seriously suggesting that Russians are going to be looking to persecute Americans because Andrei Lutai got arrested for stealing a car and driving drunk in the US? That does not speak very highly of the Russian people.

No one is claiming that if an American breaks a law in Russia, they should not be prosecuted just like anyone else. But for you to threaten that Russians will be vindictive toward all Americans because a Russian athlete was not allowed to break serious laws in the US without suffering any consequences is pretty horrible.

pippa said:

The district attorney's office decides whether or not to prosecute cases - the district attorney in Lake Placid gains no political advantage from prosecuting a skater who is completely unknown in this country. Lutai's arrest has received very little media coverage in the US - it is likely getting a lot more in Russia, but the media in Russia offers no advantage to the DA of a small American town. It is not of international importance, either - it may be important to skating fans and the Russian tabloids, but it is hardly big news all over the world. It's not like the US government is going to take an interest in something like this as if it is some kind of international incident. It isn't.

Lutai broke the law in Lake Placid, so the Lake Placid authorities are prosecuting him. There is no reason for them not to, just because he is an athlete and a foreigner.

As for his blood alcohol content, it was first reported to be .18%, and later reported by the police as "more than twice the legal limit". Since the legal limit in New York is .08%, it has to be at least .17% to be more than twice the legal limit.

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So, Pippa, you are assuming Andrey is guilty, before his trial, and you do not find it irregular that the prosecutors are absent at his hearing, and that the judge says her hands are tied because of their absence. How interesting.

You may be right about the US government not taking an interest in this case, but that does not mean that the Russian government will not.

pippa said:

....Excuse me, but that sounds like a very ugly and unneccessary threat. Are you seriously suggesting that Russians are going to be looking to persecute Americans because Andrei Lutai got arrested for stealing a car and driving drunk in the US? That does not speak very highly of the Russian people.

No one is claiming that if an American breaks a law in Russia, they should not be prosecuted just like anyone else. But for you to threaten that Russians will be vindictive toward all Americans because a Russian athlete was not allowed to break serious laws in the US without suffering any consequences is pretty horrible.

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There was no threat, Pippa. Nor was there any talk of "persecution" of U.S. athletes. That is all in your mind. There was simply a conjecture that they had better not break any laws, however accidentally, in Russia, after this mess.

Clarification

Just for clarity since this seems to be an issue:

There are a few ways to define an international incident or event. The arrest of Andrey Lutai is an international event because it involved a foreign skater on foreign soil. Maybe this event is not as big as Skate America, which was an international event, or even the First and Second World Wars, but it is still an event that is international in scope regardless of how micro or macro.

That does not mean national governments will become involved in this process. It would be absurd if they did. However, the circumstances of this event have included the local government and Russian Consulate so far, which makes it an international issue.

Dodhiyel said:

So, Pippa, you are assuming Andrey is guilty, before his trial, and you do not find it irregular that the prosecutors are absent at his hearing, and that the judge says her hands are tied because of their absence. How interesting.

You may be right about the US government not taking an interest in this case, but that does not mean that the Russian government will not.

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No, I assume there were very good reasons to arrest him, and he is not being treated unfairly. He was very intoxicated and behind the wheel of a stolen car, having been followed by employees of the garage from which the car was stolen after they observed him taking it. He was given a blood alcohol test and found to be more than twice the legal limit. YOU seem to be assuming that he is simply being unfairly persecuted because he is a Russian, which is kind of silly. Anyone would have been arrested under the same circumstances, no matter where they were from.

No, I do not think the Russian government is going to take any action, because there is no basis for it. But hey, if they do and the US government responds, then maybe you can call this an "international incident". That is not a label that applies to an unknown athlete getting arrested for good reason in a foreign country and the tabloids in his home country getting excited about it.

Lutai may have led a saintly life up until now, but many people have made very bad choices only once and had to face the consequences for them.

pippa said:

Just because it is big news in Russia does not make it an "international incident". A Russian guy got drunk and stole a car, which he then drove drunk, and he is being prosecuted accordingly. The Russian government has not gotten involved, nor has the US government or any other government. Just because the Russian tabloids are excited does not make something an international incident......

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Well, I saw a lot of similar cases, which begin as "imperceptibly", and like little irrelevant - America arrest some Russian citizen, then Russia, in return, arrest one American ... and so on, so on... :sheesh:

What I saw - all the sports media in Russia to deal with that... I wonder, when they will go and political media?

veritasetaequitas said:

Just for clarity since this seems to be an issue:

There are a few ways to define an international incident or event. The arrest of Andrey Lutai is an international event because it involved a foreign skater on foreign soil. Maybe this event is not as big as Skate America, which was an international event, or even the First and Second World Wars, but it is still an event that is international in scope regardless of how micro or macro.

That does not mean national governments will become involved in this process. It would be absurd if they did. However, the circumstances of this event have included the local government and Russian Consulate so far, which makes it an international issue.

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From Wikipedia:

An international incident is a relatively small or limited action or clash that results in a wider dispute between two or more nation-states.

By your definition, almost anything is an "international incident" because it might concern people from more than one country or be heard about by people from more than one country. Skate America was not an international incident - an event that involved people from various nations, yes, but there was no dispute between the government of those nations.

In order for an incident to qualify for the designation of an "international incident", a larger dispute between the governments of more than one nation has to result. There has been no dispute between the Russian and American governments over this incident. Whenever a foreign citizen is arrested in the US, their consulate is called - that is not a larger dispute between two governments.

Dodhiyel said:

There was no threat, Pippa. Nor was there any talk of "persecution" of U.S. athletes. That is all in your mind. There was simply a conjecture that they had better not break any laws, however accidentally, in Russia, after this mess.

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Right. Saying that US athletes who compete in Russia had better watch out because you are "very sure that Russians will remember Lake Placid 2009" was not a threat. Okaaaaay.

As I and others have said, if an American breaks the law in Russia, they should be prosecuted according to Russian law. We have no problem with that. It is rather disturbing that you and veritasetaequitas feel the need to suggest that Russians might be specifically looking to arrest Americans in retaliation for a Russian being prosecuted according to US law for something he did in our country.

pippa said:

From Wikipedia:

An international incident is a relatively small or limited action or clash that results in a wider dispute between two or more nation-states.

By your definition, almost anything is an "international incident" because it might concern people from more than one country or be heard about by people from more than one country.

That is not an accepted definition of "international incident" - in order to qualify for that designation, a larger dispute between the governments of more than one nation has to result. There has been no dispute between the Russian and American governments over this incident. Whenever a foreign citizen is arrested in the US, their consulate is called - that is not a larger dispute between two governments.

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Thank you, Pippa, for relying upon the scholarly source Wikipedia to provide a definitive answer for all of us.

To say that I respectfully disagree is apparent. My definition may not be an "accepted" Wikipedia-n definition for "international incident," but I correctly used the descriptor "international" before the noun "event."

I assume from your own limited conception of "international event" that Skate America was not one because it did not involve nation states (only "unknown" and insignificant representatives of them). I have a feeling that the champions of the event would disagree with you-- unless you are thinking in an academic, Andersonian way. (You might like Benedict Anderson's book Imagined Communities.)

I do appreciate the work you put into checking my definitions, but you might wish to cite a more scholarly source next time. I say that because I care for your reputation.

I am traveling in the morning and off to bed, but feel free to comment and equivocate further. Your posts are typically well-conceived and interesting. So I am sure if I take the time to glance at them, then they will be a joy to read.

pippa said:

Right. Saying that US athletes who compete in Russia had better watch out because you are "very sure that Russians will remember Lake Placid 2009" was not a threat. Okaaaaay.

As I and others have said, if an American breaks the law in Russia, they should be prosecuted according to Russian law. We have no problem with that. It is rather disturbing that you and veritasetaequitas feel the need to suggest that Russians might be specifically looking to arrest Americans in retaliation for a Russian being prosecuted according to US law for something he did in our country.

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I broke my promise because I saw this.

Pippa, please read what is written in my post and do not concoct things in your imagination that do not appear on the page.

I did not suggest that Russians will be wringing their hands to arrest the next American that sets foot upon Russian soil.

I said that all this talk of victimization will occur again. If an American is arrested in Russia it is because they allegedly did something wrong, will enter the juridical process and will be punished or released depending upon the verdict. Undoubtedly, if such an event occurs and a thread is posted there will be the same type of reactions and discussions of fairness, politics and everything as usual. I've seen it on threads discussing Yagudin, Staviskiiy, Bobek and others.

Few pay attention to the facts and everyone has their own opinions. Such is life. Have a good night.

veritasetaequitas said:

Thank you, Pippa, for relying upon the scholarly source Wikipedia to provide a definitive answer for all of us.

To say that I respectfully disagree is apparent. My definition may not be an "accepted" Wikipedia-n definition for "international incident," but I correctly used the descriptor "international" before the noun "event."

I assume from your own limited conception of "international event" that Skate America was not one because it did not involve nation states (only "unknown" and insignificant representatives of them). I have a feeling that the champions of the event would disagree with you-- unless you are thinking in an academic, Andersonian way. (You might like Benedict Anderson's book Imagined Communities.)

I do appreciate the work you put into checking my definitions, but you might wish to cite a more scholarly source next time. I say that because I care for your reputation.

I am traveling in the morning and off to bed, but feel free to comment and equivocate further. Your posts are typically well-conceived and interesting. So I am sure if I take the time to glance at them, then they will be a joy to read.

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Likewise, verisataequitas. You so clearly put every ounce of the intelligence you are capable of mustering into your posts, and the fact that they are full of baseless conjecture and rude sarcasm in no way diminishes their entertainment value. I look forward to skimming them for more laugh-out-loud definitions and off-topic paranoia from you in the future, O wise sage of the skating boards.

But I see that you don't like the source of the definition I provided for "international incident" (NOT "international event", O sage - "event" and "incident" would be two very different words with different meanings, but surely someone of your superior intellect would know that - oh, wait, you didn't know that, since you responded to a discussion of whether or not this is an "international incident" with your personal definition of an international event like Skate America).

You claim that your personal definition is superior to one from Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a "scholarly source". I am sorry to say, wise one, that no matter how highly you may think of yourself, your own mind is actually not a "scholarly source", either. So please provide an established scholarly source that supports YOUR definition of "international incident". This "scholarly source" of yours will of course give a definition which could conceivably include a DUI arrest that does not involve any governmental disputes between nations. I await with bated breath your post supplying this source - all because I care so very deeply about your reputation, of course.

In the meantime, you can read this:

What is an International Incident?

Oh, but sadly you are going to bed now and can't post again........

veritasetaequitas said:

I broke my promise because I saw this.

Pippa, please read what is written in my post and do not concoct things in your imagination that do not appear on the page.

I did not suggest that Russians will be wringing their hands to arrest the next American that sets foot upon Russian soil.

I said that all this talk of victimization will occur again. If an American is arrested in Russia it is because they allegedly did something wrong, will enter the juridical process and will be punished or released depending upon the verdict. Undoubtedly, if such an event occurs and a thread is posted there will be the same type of reactions and discussions of fairness, politics and everything as usual. I've seen it on threads discussing Yagudin, Staviskiiy, Bobek and others.

Few pay attention to the facts and everyone has their own opinions. Such is life. Have a good night.

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Oh, awake from your nap so soon, O sage? Please go back to bed - you are still grumpy and having trouble making sense. And perhaps re-read your own words before denying them.

Have a lovely trip, wise one.