Are scores inflated or have skaters improved?

enlight78 · Nov 21, 2009

I will do a simple breakdown of scores; It will round it instead of being exact.
Fact and 3lutz/3T is only worth 3pt more than it's 3/2 sister;

Yu-Na has cosistantly scored 76 pts in the short with high goe's ;levels; and 8+ PC's
So a similar skater with only a 3/2 should be able to score 73 pts

If a skater presentation is less than Yu-na they may only get 7;s in PC's bringing the score down 4pts to only 69pts (aka joannie's 70pts)

If the skater doesn't max out her levels(3,4's) and only get (2,3's) that will cost her 5pts and lower her short to 65pts ( aka Joannie's 65+ score at worlds and Alissa Nationals )

If skater get lil to no positive GOE's that can cost 8 pts or more in general taking the skater score down to 57pts( Ashely Wagner and Carolina Zhang and Racheal Flatt)

If skater gets - GOE on all elments Wrong Edge; step outs; UR's ; etc that can cost another 8+ pts taking the skater score down to 49pts;

If the skater has bad PC's (5's) that will cost another 8 pts bring the skater short total to 41 pts

So do to the wide range of Levels; GOE's; PCs; and how clean a skater is a 3/2 program can score anywhere from 41 to 73; So I believe fans should think for a second before they say so and so had the same jumps yet there is a twenty point difference; I believe skaters are scoing higher because they are following the bullet points( for levels ; Goes) better than they were seasons prior and that is why they are scoring higer; Those who fail to hit the bullet points are throwing points away literally. I don't know if that is a skater issue or a coaching issue.

Bennett · Nov 22, 2009

What I saw at SC is that PCS mattered really a lot because its score range was so incredibly wide between skaters and between judges. Although we may always agree to disagree with judges, PCS's making a so much difference is problematic because it leaves a lot of controversy. After all, the judging system may not be getting very much objective despite its original intention to introduce the new system.

623 · Nov 22, 2009

Bennett said:
What I saw at SC is that PCS mattered really a lot because its score range was so incredibly wide between skaters. Although we may always agree to disagree with judges, PCS's making a so much difference is problematic because it leaves a lot of controversy. After all, the judging system may not be getting very much objective despite its original intention to introduce the new system.

I wondered for some time about it. No matter what PCS a skater gets there are some people who agree with it, and some who think that the score is too high/low. So maybe making PCS less important would be a solution to a certain degree.
As I understand it now (please, correct me if I am wrong) PCS is multiplied by 2.0 in order to make it matter as much as technical score does, becauce PCS when not multiplied is much lower than TES. But if PSC is so controversial, perhaps it should not be considered as important as TES since TES seems to me to be more objective (although I know that judges can use GOE in a subjective way). So maybe PCS should not be multiplied and just counted on its own to the final score or maybe even it should be multiplied by 0.8 or 0.6. to make it even more irrevelant.
Diminishing the value of PCS would do away with the PCS being a subjective and prone to manipulation score. I personally am a bit cynical and think that no matter what one is going to get high PCS.
But would diminishing the importance of PCS negatively influence the skating? Would the skaters try to be artistic or work on their skating skills without being tempted by high PCS? Some of them do not seem to care about PCS score, don't they? Or at leas their (lack of) choreography indicate that. But on the other hand I heard Joannie Rochette and Nobubnari Oda talking that their worked on their artisty/body movement because they wanted to get better PCS.
I would like to read your opinions.

janetfan · Nov 22, 2009

Bennett said:
What I saw at SC is that PCS mattered really a lot because its score range was so incredibly wide between skaters. Although we may always agree to disagree with judges, PCS's making a so much difference is problematic because it leaves a lot of controversy. After all, the judging system may not be getting very much objective despite its original intention to introduce the new system.

What we are seeing in this season's CoP scoring is exactly the same thing that many objected to about 6.0 scoring

ISU can change the scoring system but the subjectivity in marking skaters will always remain. :yes:

Unfortunately we still see too much propping up of the top skaters.
It is one way to explain such high scores for some mediocre and downright sloppy, failed programs this season.

It is amusing to hear arguments about Yuna and Joannie's recent LP's being so hotly debated. And their SP scores too :yes:

For gosh sakes, they were not even at the same event.
Is it really so hard to understand that a different judging panel marking a different set of skaters at a different event is not necessarily always going to have the exact same level of consistency?

How odd to find myself defending judges :yes:

Maybe it is my 6.0 background but I still think that getting the placement of the skaters is the most important thing.

But these score differentials do matter and effect a skaters ISU ranking :laugh:

Some may get a trip to the GPF simply because they were at an event where the marks trended higher than the skater they beat out by a few points.

Sport tends to reflect life and sometimes neither feels very fair at times.

Jeremy earned a trip to the GPF last night. I wonder if he would be better off skipping it to recharge his battery in an Olympic season. I remember how tired he looked last year at Worlds and wonder if missing the GPF might have been better for him?

I thought the men's competition last night at SC was pretty good and I enjoyed watching it.
I can't say the same about the Ladies though. It was actually one more slopfest that can't possibly be doing anything to help skating's popularity.

Unless we are thrilled with the winner's performance and wish to annoint her "Queen of the Double Jump."

merrybari · Nov 22, 2009

Let's give credit where credit is due. Skaters work hard. :clap:

No one stays stagnant from one season to the next so my sense is that skaters have improved. :agree:

prettykeys · Nov 22, 2009

PCS's have trended higher over the years.

I don't know if that's a reflection of a better understanding of the scoring system, or if it's a slow inflation.

Bennett · Nov 22, 2009

What I noticed at SC is not only inflation of PCS among top skaters, but also deflation of PCS among relatively lower-ranked skaters. Caroline, for example, received pretty pathetic PCS from some of the judges (2's, 3's, and 4's). I had an impression that the score gap between the top-ranked skaters and lower-ranked skaters may be widening.

I actually think it fine if the same judge gives the same skater varied PCS depending on what is skated on that day. That is, it is healthy to have a wide score gap as long as it reflects the quality of skating. But PCS seems to be rather stable and acts like a reputation score (e.g., Mao's PCS in the LP of CoR when she had the worst skate ever; Miki's PCS at NHK two years ago when she had a complete meltdown).

Suppose that the PCS score gap between skaters is really widening, the comp would become less and less exciting because the results would become more and more predictable.

Buttercup · Nov 22, 2009

I'm not sure the PCS scores have really gone up across the board. I looked at some protocols from past years, and people were getting pretty high scores back then (check out 2003 Skate Canada - there was some crazy stuff, or the Olympics - pretty high marks). The difference, I think, is that this season it seems like the top people at each event have been given a bit of a bonus, and occasionally individual judges have gotten a bit wacky. But in some areas scores used to be higher - transitions, for instance.

What has gone up is the GOEs. These days it's not uncommon for some of the finesse guys to go 12-14 points above their base mark in the LP. For instance, compare two very different skates: Plushenko's OGM LP and Oda's TEB LP: which one do you think got the higher TES, and which one got the higher PCS? If you gave the TES edge to Nobu and the PCS to Plushy, you're correct.

I've seen some big differences between base marks and TES in the SPs as well. I would attribute this to skaters, coaches and choreographers learning how to work the system. I was going to use a less polite term but then thought the better of it :biggrin:

. This, IMO, is what leads to less risk-taking: why put in a difficult element where you might crash when you can do a nice triple out of footwork and get a +2 on it? The question is, do we want cleaner, more elegant programs or risk-taking, because more and more it looks like we won't get both.

Mathman · Nov 22, 2009

Buttercup said:
I'm not sure the PCS scores have really gone up across the board. I looked at some protocols from past years, and people were getting pretty high scores back then (check out 2003 Skate Canada

2003 was the first year of the CoP. The judges did not really know how the sytem was supposed to work. They gave out very high scores. Sasha's personal best of 197 from 2003 stood as the record for several years.

At the end of the season the ISU braintrust put their heads together and deliberately came up with guidelines to lower the scores.

What has gone up is the GOEs.

I think that was deliberate, too. At the end of last season the ISU put out some publications encouraging judges not to be so timid in awarding high GOEs. It was part of their push to reward easier elements performed well, relative to hard elements performed poorly.

The criteria for positive GOEs, unlike negative GOEs, were never really defined very well before.

Spun Silver · Nov 22, 2009

Buttercup said:
The question is, do we want cleaner, more elegant programs or risk-taking, because more and more it looks like we won't get both.

Too often we're not getting either! As a matter of fact, where is there a clean, elegant program these days?

CoP encourages footwork and transitions of a difficulty that for most skaters just ends up looking cluttered and pointless. The harvest is great but few are the Takahashis.

But they still rack up the points and that just encourages more cluttered, overscored programs.

skatingbc · Nov 22, 2009

Bennett said:
What I noticed at SC is not only inflation of PCS among top skaters, but also deflation of PCS among relatively lower-ranked skaters. Caroline, for example, received pretty pathetic PCS from some of the judges (2's, 3's, and 4's). I had an impression that the score gap between the top-ranked skaters and lower-ranked skaters may be widening.

Caroline's skate at SC was pretty awful though. I don't think that is a good example. She was her usual self (slow) plus falls and she also threw out most of her choreography in between jumping passes. It was the worst I've ever seen her skate.

Bennett · Nov 22, 2009

PCSs for Mirai and Akiko were also pretty low.

Layfan · Nov 23, 2009

enlight78 said:

I will do a simple breakdown of scores; It will round it instead of being exact.
Fact and 3lutz/3T is only worth 3pt more than it's 3/2 sister;

Click to expand...

enlight78 said:
Yu-Na has cosistantly scored 76 pts in the short with high goe's ;levels; and 8+ PC's
So a similar skater with only a 3/2 should be able to score 73 pts

If a skater presentation is less than Yu-na they may only get 7;s in PC's bringing the score down 4pts to only 69pts (aka joannie's 70pts)

If the skater doesn't max out her levels(3,4's) and only get (2,3's) that will cost her 5pts and lower her short to 65pts ( aka Joannie's 65+ score at worlds and Alissa Nationals )

If skater get lil to no positive GOE's that can cost 8 pts or more in general taking the skater score down to 57pts( Ashely Wagner and Carolina Zhang and Racheal Flatt)

If skater gets - GOE on all elments Wrong Edge; step outs; UR's ; etc that can cost another 8+ pts taking the skater score down to 49pts;

If the skater has bad PC's (5's) that will cost another 8 pts bring the skater short total to 41 pts

So do to the wide range of Levels; GOE's; PCs; and how clean a skater is a 3/2 program can score anywhere from 41 to 73; So I believe fans should think for a second before they say so and so had the same jumps yet there is a twenty point difference; I believe skaters are scoing higher because they are following the bullet points( for levels ; Goes) better than they were seasons prior and that is why they are scoring higer; Those who fail to hit the bullet points are throwing points away literally. I don't know if that is a skater issue or a coaching issue.

For me this helps explain Joannie's score at SC! I don't know if I like COP better than 6.0. But for me it has been a relief that the system values transitions and footworks etc. Obviously, skaters who can to 3-3 and harder jumps should be rewarded. But if a skater could win just by having good jumps the magic would go right out of the sport, I think.
Going back to the original question - for me it seems like scores have gotten lower overall. We have Yuna Kim and Joannie but it seems like precious few have gotten SP scores higher than 60 so far this season. Do scores tend to go up as the season progresses?

Bennett · Nov 23, 2009

Layfan said:
Going back to the original question - for me it seems like scores have gotten lower overall. We have Yuna Kim and Joannie but it seems like precious few have gotten SP scores higher than 60 so far this season. Do scores tend to go up as the season progresses?

I have an impression that skaters may score higher at Worlds.

enlight78 · Nov 23, 2009

I think scores do tend to increase as the season progress; it seem that way the past three seasons but that could be from skaters getting better from trainning all season; i don't think cop is promoting easier elements or discoraging riskier elements; it seeming to advise skater to use what they do well; if put something your bad at in your program you get punish if you put something your good at in the program you get rewarded; if that is;

Are scores inflated or have skaters improved?

enlight78

Bennett

623

janetfan

Match Penalty

merrybari

prettykeys

Bennett

Buttercup

Mathman

Spun Silver

skatingbc

Bennett

Layfan

Bennett

enlight78

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