Lastest Phil Hersh column

I'm not sure I buy the idea that Joannie had a major breakthrough in the past year. My favorite skates of hers are from 2005:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17uTwCAUtrw
and 2007:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ct5k_joannie-rochette-2007-4cc-gala_sport
And those are the only two I find really memorable. It's interesting that the second is a girlie number. She can do it just fine when she has the right choreography and costume. (Maybe she does the ice-queen type better than the seductress? Just a guess.) If she skates like she does in either of these in Vancouver, I'll have no problem with her waltzing away with a medal, even a gold one.

It seems to me that in the past year her team has gotten much better at maxing the points. But for me at least, it hasn't necessarily resulted in gorgeous programs. Apart from her "Firebird," people don't talk about Joannie's program by name the way they do Yu Na's "Bond Girl," "Lark Ascending," and "Tango de Roxane." She needs programs that suit her and she needs to sell them. Maybe by February we'll be seeing that. I think she may have it in her.

Yes, that's one thing she does very well- works the system.

Bennett said:

I didn't think that Jenny was attacking Sasha as a liar. She just pointed out inconsistency in her statement, which people have done across FS boards.

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I disagree; I think Jenny did pretty much call Sasha a liar without explicitly using direct words. Jenny, also, in her most recent article about Sasha, said (and I'm paraphrasing): "Some people think she's just making silly excuses, while her fans think she is honestly struggling" or something to that effect.

I mean, maybe I'm reaching a little too far, but it seems easy to me to categorize Jenny into the former group, even if Jenny doesn't just come out and say "I think Sasha is making bullcrap excuses."

Is Jenny within her journalistic/blogger's rights to? SURE she is. But there is no way I'm not going to zoom-in on her words about Sasha and nod my head without using cautionary filters.

Now, if someone like Blades of Passion or Olympia from these boards said skeptical things about Sasha, I would give their comments the kind of "open ears" I wouldn't give Jennifer Kirk. Because those are examples of intelligent posters who (IMO) say balanced and fair things without any apparent personal gripes about particular skaters.

Bennett said:

Finally, Jenny has not been consistently negative about Sasha. Check out other entries of hers on Sasha. She also has many nice things to say about Sasha. So I did not get an impression that Jenny is biased because she lost to Sasha before. Although Jenny may have her most favorite skaters and least favorite ones in her mind, just like every one of us does, I would not necessarily put it in the context of her personal jealousy against her former rivals, although it is equally possible that this could be the case.

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You can be biased while saying complimentary things. The way I discern bias (or maybe I'm just crazy and imagining I have special insight when I'm as blockheaded as everyone else, whatever) is when someone makes an irrational criticism. It's not the pretty things they say, but the basis of the negative things.

Another example of this is *ahem* when I go to a certain skater's fan forum, a certain poster who also posts here said "Oh, YuNa is so wonderful, oh, I hope she sure does hit her 3flip despite the reports of her having recent mental issues with it because she's so great and it would be awesome to have at least one female skater this season not falter." Such kinds words! How sweet.

And then of course this user comes to these boards after YuNa messes up her LP at Skate America and then says crooked things like "Dude? What is up with her three 2A's? That's totally weak. I don't get that. She is like, totally overscored."

So I would like to throw out that user's "support" of YuNa and I am not convinced she was genuine about it at all.

And likewise, I think you would have to be completely biased to not have anything complimentary to say about a skater like Sasha who has some of the best qualities in certain aspects of figure skating (e.g. spiral positions) and grabbed an Olympic silver medal after a flawless SP in possibly the most pressure-filled skating event. Yes, Jenny, thank you for showing us you aren't completely biased. But there's no way I'm going to swallow all your words about Sasha (and others) whole and unfiltered.

Here's another thing, too.

Let's assume Sasha was completely healthy and really was just making piddly excuses because she didn't want to compete because she wasn't comfortably ready for either TEB or SA.

Why is it in any neutral bystander's interest to criticize her for withdrawing? Even IF you are a Sasha fan disappointed because you bought tickets in hopes of seeing her skate.

I just don't get it. If she never planned on competing this season, the end result is almost the same - you wouldn't have seen her skate.

Perhaps you would have seen another second-tier skater at TEB/SA instead of the ones we actually did and you feel those other skaters were robbed of an opportunity. I still can't see why it's such a major issue, though. Someone got the experience to skate in Sasha's stead...

In the most recent Jenny's entry on this topic <http://trueslant.com/jenniferkirk/2009/11/09/cohens-comeback-stalls/#more-963>, Jenny mainly analyzes at length how the specific injury at the specific location could affect a skater's jumps, training, and confidence. She also briefly analyzes the disadvantage of debuting programs in Jan. Based on these variables, she questions any skater's chances at Nationals or Olympics. I find her experientail analysis helpful because it informs us in what ways an injury can affect the overall condition of the skater both physically and mentally. I wish her good luck in her development as a journalist. Although I have read skating analyses by Shizuka and Junko Yaginuma, Jenny's is a lot more informative.

i love to skate said:

Joannie had a huge breathrough year last year and probably has the best technique on many of her jumps.

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"Probably" has a great landing technique, but not for all of the other components defining a good jump (e.g., take-off, rotation axis in the air, height, etc). Her toe-pick technique is...well... She has some pre-rotation for her toe jumps. Some figure fans who watched SC started to notice and talk about her use of full blade for lutzs.

so_proud said:

"Probably" has a great landing technique, but not for all of the other components defining a good jump (e.g., take-off, rotation axis in the air, height, etc). Her toe-pick technique is...well... She has some pre-rotation for her toe jumps. Some figure fans who watched SC started to notice and talk about her use of full blade for lutzs.

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Joannie has fantastic take offs, rotation, and height on her jumps. ALL toe loops have some pre-rotation, for crying out loud. What exactly do you mean she used the full blade for her lutz??

so_proud said:

Since Yuna started competing at international events (from Novice to Senior), there was no single time she didn't get in the podium. The number for the 1st place is larger than that for 2nd and 3rd, as far as I remember. She has worlds records in short, long, and the combinations. She won the Grand Prix Series 7times consecutively. She is a two-time GPF champion. She is the current world champion. What else? There could be more, but these would just be general factors that make her separated from Joannie, I think.

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Well said! Couldn't agree with you more. I think she set 5 world records
in SP (not to mention she was only 16 when she set the first world record with her tango- that is she was Caroline and Mirai's age) and she set 2 world records in LP. That is just mind boggling.

i love to skate said:

Way better? I don't know why people think there is a huge seperation between the two. IMO, the two skaters are pretty close in their performance and execution and both have excellent choreography. I would say that Joannie has the best skating skills in the world. .

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hmmm??? Since when did Joannie set world records?
Joannie hasn't beat Yuna in one single competition. In fact in last world championships 2009, Yuna beat Joannie by a huge score. There is no way
Joannie could outskate Yuna. Even choreography wise, I don't think Joannie could do Mao or Yuna's program. Their programs have such more complexity.

figurejennah said:

hmmm??? Since when did Joannie set world records?
Joannie hasn't beat Yuna in one single competition. In fact in last world championships 2009, Yuna beat Joannie by a huge score. There is no way
Joannie could outskate Yuna. I couldn't imagine Joannie being able to do a difficult program like Gershwin...
Even choreography wise, I don't think Joannice could do Mao's program.

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If you don't think Joannie has hard choreography then I'm not quite sure what you are watching. It is obvious that her programs have some of the most intricate choreography and difficult transitions.

I find it kind of funny all of the "Joannie hate" that has come out this year. I saw an interesting comment on YouTube that with the number of insulting comments she is getting, that many fans of other skaters must view her as a threat to their favourites. I would agree with this.

mylastduchess said:

Well Its pretty hard to argue against overscoring when Joannie Rochette in Skate Canada got 4 points higher in PCS alone than Joannie Rochette in Cup of China. I mean hello who else gets 4 points higher for skating worse.

Joannie Rochette who landed 5 clean triples could not beat Joannie Rochette with 3 clean triples. Go figure...

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I know, I was trying to figure it out myself.

i love to skate said:

If you don't think Joannie has hard choreography then I'm not quite sure what you are watching. It is obvious that her programs have some of the most intricate choreography and difficult transitions.

I find it kind of funny all of the "Joannie hate" that has come out this year. I saw an interesting comment on YouTube that with the number of insulting comments she is getting, that many fans of other skaters must view her as a threat to their favourites. I would agree with this.

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Well, obviously you think Joannie's skating skills are best in the world, so there's our difference in view points. Yes, I defintely think that Joannie's program is easier than some other skaters' programs. It's not like every skater out there comes out programs with the exact same difficulties. For example, I think Lepisto is just incredibly gorgeous and joyful to watch, but Scott Hamilton did say that her program is easy. Compared to Yuna, Joannie is slower, she receives 70 without doing 3-3, and she can't even do biellmann. Her steps? mmm... I think Mao's is better by 10 miles.

Also, it's not just about one skater's fans who are concerned about Joannie and I certainly don't think Philip Hersh is Korean... lol. What I personally am more concerned about is that the olympics will be held in Canada in less than 100 days or so, and in Skate Canada, both Canadian scores received these inflated PCS scores. You can't blame some people for considering this as a bad omen... I am sorry, but I've read several posts of yours, and you always argue that Yuna's scores are inflated. Nevertheless, she did not receive these inflated scores in her homeland.

figurejennah said:

Well, obviously you think Joannie's skating skills are best in the world, so there's our difference in view points.

Also, it's not just about one skater's fans who are concerned about Joannie and I certainly don't think Philip Hersh is Korean... lol. What I personally am more concerned about is that the olympics will be held in Canada in less than 100 days or so, and in Skate America, both Canadian scores received these inflated PCS scores. You can't blame some people for considering this as a bad omen... I am sorry, but I've read several posts of yours, and you always argue that Yuna's scores are inflated. Nevertheless, she did not receive these inflated scores in her homeland.

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I am just not one for conspiracy theories. What do you think the judges do? Get together in a little room and say "Ok, well since we are in Canada, we have to give all the Canadian skaters excellent marks so that they will win" Why would the judges do this? They aren't from Canada and there is no reason for them to root for a Canadian skater....there is only one Canadian judge on the panel!

Also Joannie competed in 4CC in Vancouver last year....and she didn't win - she skated an EXCELLENT program too! I know you are a fan of Yu-Na Kim and she has been welcomed warmly here in Canada where she has been allowed to receive exceptional training, ice time, and support. Some of our famous Canadian athletes are helping her in achieving her Olympic dream.

Also, it's not just about one skater's fans who are concerned about Joannie and I certainly don't think Philip Hersh is Korean... lol. What I personally am more concerned about is that the olympics will be held in Canada in less than 100 days or so, and in Skate America, both Canadian scores received these inflated PCS scores. You can't blame some people for considering this as a bad omen... I am sorry, but I've read several posts of yours, and you always argue that Yuna's scores are inflated. Nevertheless, she did not receive these inflated scores in her homeland.

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Exactly. Hopefully, if it happens, it would be a scandal waiting to happen, so this might keep them in check. One would hope.

prettykeys said:

Although hehehehehe I would like to mention a friend of mine who doesn't follow Figure Skating said that YuNa's Bond SP drew her attention and she thought YuNa was so outstandingly good "while everyone else looks the same". I wasn't even the one who told her to watch! And she's not Korean!!! ^____________^

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While waiting for a bus to take us back to train station in westport, I had a chance to talk with an old lady who has been a huge figure skating fan since the 1960s or so. She said she's been to most of SAs and world championships including the last one. She said she hasn't seen a successful Skate America like this year's for a long time, and it is thanks to Yuna Kim because everyone wanted to see her. Even during the practice sessions, little girls were running
towards Yuna kim like crazy to get her autographs after her session was over.
I certainly saw more white people than Asian people, so I think she might be correct. Even though she's not American, Yuna might be the extraordinary one who may revive the figure skating popularity.

i love to skate said:

I am just not one for conspiracy theories. What do you think the judges do? Get together in a little room and say "Ok, well since we are in Canada, we have to give all the Canadian skaters excellent marks so that they will win" Why would the judges do this? They aren't from Canada and there is no reason for them to root for a Canadian skater....there is only one Canadian judge on the panel!

Also Joannie competed in 4CC in Vancouver last year....and she didn't win - she skated an EXCELLENT program too! I know you are a fan of Yu-Na Kim and she has been welcomed warmly here in Canada where has been allowed to receive exceptional training, ice time, and support. Some of our famous Canadian athletes are helping her in achieving her Olympic dream.

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Well... Salt lake did happen, didn't it? And one judge did give her a 9.25.. oh come on!

I am not trying to put down Canada in general. I love Brian Orser, I always loved him since the battle of the Brians. I know Yuna is welcomed in Canada and she also loves it there. I am not questioning how Canada and Canadians treat her, but we are only having these discussions over Joannie's inflated PCS scores, and how it may affect the Olympics. By having an argument with you, it's not like I am attacking the entire Canadian community that embraces Yuna warmly. I am only pointing out that no matter how many Canadians love Yuna and how many world records she sets, there will always be like Joannie fans who will argue that her scores are inflated and try to put her down. And also, even if there were many Canadian Yuna fans, wouldn't they rather see their own Canadian Skater get a gold medal than Yuna? (I am sure you feel that way.) Isn't that true? And Isn't that what Philp Hersh article is about and Isn't it why we are having this conversation now?

R.D. said:

Exactly. Hopefully, if it happens, it would be a scandal waiting to happen, so this might keep them in check. One would hope.

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Oops, I meant to write Skate Canada, not Skate America. I fixed it!

figurejennah said:

Well... Salt lake did happen, didn't it? And one judge gave her a 9.25.. oh come on!

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It is not the same system. Two of the judges scores randomly don't get selected and the high and low numbers also get thrown out. It's much harder for a cheating scandal to occur.

figurejennah said:

I am only pointing out that no matter how many Canadians love Yuna and how many world records she sets, there will always be like Joannie fans who will argue that her scores are inflated and try to put her down. Isn't that true?

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Aren't you complaining about Joannie being overscored? How is that any different? There have been many insults thrown Joannie's way in the past week saying she isn't feminine because of her muscular build among other insulting things. I'd say that is a lot worse than Yu-Na has received - at least on these boards.

ETA: Yes obviously the majority of Canada wants Joannie to win gold.

i love to skate said:

It is not the same system. Two of the judges scores randomly don't get selected and the high and low numbers also get thrown out. It's much harder for a cheating scandal to occur.



Aren't you complaining about Joannie being overscored? How is that any different? There have been many insults thrown Joannie's way in the past week saying she isn't feminine because of her muscular build among other insulting things. I'd say that is a lot worse than Yu-Na has received - at least on these boards.

ETA: Yes obviously the majority of Canada wants Joannie to win gold. I was just pointing out how warmly Yu-Na has been welcomed into our country - even now when it is an Olympic year and we have huge medal hopes in all sports and pressure on our athletes.

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I am only trying that say that the whole reason why the system had to change is that because Salt Lake DID occur. You made it sound like omg, there is no such conspiracy those things don't happen. And in our new system, there is TES, but then there also is PCS, and that's what we are discussing about, right?

And I feel bad that Joannie received these harsh comments about her muscles... but it's not just Yuna fans. I go to Mao fansites often, too, and they call Joannie "brother" in Japanese... But it's not just Joannie who receives these horrible name callings. Even here, we make fun of Caroline's "Mule" kicks, someone posted Yuna's before-after make up photos and laughing at it, etc.

And I will repeat this again. I am not questioning how Canada has welcomed Yuna (And please, I am from USA), but you are also Canadian, and YOU think Yuna's scores are inflated and she's totally overrated, etc, etc. And as you can see, I am not the only one who has shown concern for these Canadian skaters' inflated scores, so please don't make it sound like I am creating all these conspiracies.

And you should realize the the reason why Joannie is receiving all these concerns about her scores is that she received these scores in Canada, her homeland, the place where the Olympics will be held, not anywhere else. That is why I think it's funny how you always say Yuna receives inflated scores, but Joannie does not. I mean you even said since Yuna can get 76 with 3-3, Joannie should get 70 with her 3-2... I don't know.

I think many of the posts on this thead can be summed up in one sentence:

My favourite skater never, ever gets overscored, it's just those skaters I don't like as much that get unwarranted *help* from the judges.

Can you two get a room, please? :scowl:

evangeline said:

I think many of the posts on this thead can be summed up in one sentence:

My favourite skater never, ever gets overscored, it's just those skaters I don't like as much that get unwarranted *help* from the judges.

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That's so funny and so true Evangeline.
What is wrong with some of these fans?

My complaints this season have nothing to do with being overmarked.

My favorite Mirai keeps getting undermarked and I am getting sick and tired of it

The judges must be blind and are all against Mirai because there is no way my favorite deserves to be losing.