Your top ten ladies of all time?

Layfan · Mar 16, 2010

Enero said:
For me an “artist on ice” is not just someone who can emote well, but someone who can combine that emotion with creative and beautiful movement. IMO, Sasha did this very well. Not only did she immerse herself in the music, expressing herself through every note, but the moves that she incorporated with that emotion (the finishing touches of her pointed toes and her exquisite positions) were a work of art to me. I would say the same for Anissina & Peizerant (and M/D’s 1992 Olympic Long Program). A/P weren’t “beautiful” on ice, but the emotion combined with their creative moves was art to me. M/D’s “Dreams of Love” program from 1992 was IMHO a work of art – absolutely exquisite program, position after position along with the presence they exuded made this program amazing.

Michelle and Tara had great choregraphy and wonderful emotion – presence, but nothing about their skating (with the exception of Michelle’s spiral) was so beautiful or creative that it made me want to stop the program and capture that moment/s in time. With Sasha and the others mentioned above there were countless times throughout their programs that I wanted to do just that, stop the program and capture the moment in time. The best way I can explain it is that “moment/program should be on a wall somewhere.”

Thanks for your comments. Well, sounds like you have very high standards. Fair enough.

There is a difference between Sasha and Michelle and I can completely understand why some people might prefer Sasha.

For me, I would capture any second of Michelle's final footwork sequence in Tosca at nationals, especially the falling leaf split and just ... all of it. And the the middle footwork sequence in Rachmaninov in '98. Her spiral sequence in that program too - all of these girls doing ugly COP spirals sequences should look at what Michelle did in that SP. That's how it's done. No pitching forward to get your leg up a bit higher in the arabesque, no lifting your hip up to get your leg to your ear. Michelle may not have been a pretzel but the line between her head, back, leg and foot during her spirals were perfect. It was pure and uncheated. Actually, I'd have no problem putting that whole program on a loop on my wall. :biggrin:

Not a finger or head position out of place....

Kwanford Wife · Mar 16, 2010

Enero said:
For me an “artist on ice” is not just someone who can emote well, but someone who can combine that emotion with creative and beautiful movement. IMO, Sasha did this very well. Not only did she immerse herself in the music, expressing herself through every note, but the moves that she incorporated with that emotion (the finishing touches of her pointed toes and her exquisite positions) were a work of art to me. I would say the same for Anissina & Peizerant (and M/D’s 1992 Olympic Long Program). A/P weren’t “beautiful” on ice, but the emotion combined with their creative moves was art to me. M/D’s “Dreams of Love” program from 1992 was IMHO a work of art – absolutely exquisite program, position after position along with the presence they exuded made this program amazing.

Michelle and Tara had great choregraphy and wonderful emotion – presence, but nothing about their skating (with the exception of Michelle’s spiral) was so beautiful or creative that it made me want to stop the program and capture that moment/s in time. With Sasha and the others mentioned above there were countless times throughout their programs that I wanted to do just that, stop the program and capture the moment in time. The best way I can explain it is that “moment/program should be on a wall somewhere.”

While I sort of understand this post, I would like to point out that for me, the difference between skaters who are great and GREAT SKATERS is that the first have the moments referenced above... GREAT SKATERS move me from the first note to the last... there isn't a specific moment, just the performance itself. Now, plenty on my list have great moments within a program (Michelle's falling leaf, Diva's Ina) but the sum has got to be greater than the parts to hit my requirement of GREAT.

jenaj · Mar 16, 2010

SkatingAnalyst said:
As I said, Michelle built her fan-base by winning a lot of competitions.

People have a tendency...If they see same person over and over, they get familiar with that person. And when the person keep on winning for the contry... the person becomes a hero and everything the person does... look so great.
I liked Michelle when she won Worlds 5 times for the USA. But I always wanted Sasha to win because... I always was facinated by her beautiful display of her flexibility.
I bet more people love sasha in Japan or Russia than Michelle... because BEAUTIFUL SKATING is more important to them than Michelle winning for the USA.

Here is a performance by Michelle when she was 18. She had two World Championships at that point, but was not yet a legend. Tell me it is not great artistry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=777YeHmR1C8

Kwanford Wife · Mar 16, 2010

SkatingAnalyst said:
As I said, Michelle built her fan-base by winning a lot of competitions.

People have a tendency...If they see same person over and over, they get familiar with that person. And when the person keep on winning for the contry... the person becomes a hero and everything the person does... look so great.
I liked Michelle when she won Worlds 5 times for the USA. But I always wanted Sasha to win because... I always was facinated by her beautiful display of her flexibility.
I bet more people love sasha in Japan or Russia than Michelle... because BEAUTIFUL SKATING is more important to them than Michelle winning for the USA.

Nah... I totally disagree. Michelle Kwan is a legend because of what happened when she stepped on the ice. Not because of the medals she won. Now, I can understand a person preferring Sasha to Michelle (well, actually I can't - but that is a personal issue) but to insist that a skater is popular simply because we were used to seeing her is a bit disrespectful to both her legend and fans.

In short, Michelle is so beloved, around the world - not just in the US, because of her talent, not her medals. The medals just make ubers like me more obnoxious.

Layfan · Mar 16, 2010

jenaj said:
Here is a performance by Michelle when she was 18. She had two World Championships at that point, but was not yet a legend. Tell me it is not great artistry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=777YeHmR1C8

oh thanks! I hadn't seen that one. I love that camel spin with the catch foot she does in the middle...

Layfan · Mar 16, 2010

Kwanford Wife said:
Nah... I totally disagree. Michelle Kwan is a legend because of what happened when she stepped on the ice. Not because of the medals she won. Now, I can understand a person preferring Sasha to Michelle (well, actually I can't - but that is a personal issue) but to insist that a skater is popular simply because we were used to seeing her is a bit disrespectful to both her legend and fans.

In short, Michelle is so beloved, around the world - not just in the US, because of her talent, not her medals. The medals just make ubers like me more obnoxious.

Well, I suppose there is always something a little pointless to making some definitive statement about who is a better skater than who.
It might be more interesting to say Michelle had greater security in her jumps and displayed more confidence than Sasha, but Sasha had better spins and positions.
Or you could say Kim Yuna is a more powerful jumper than Michelle was and a faster skater and maybe even more musical. But Michelle showed more emotion, connected better with the audience, had a better spiral and pointed her feet...
Who is to say who is better? I probably depends on what each of us values most about skating.

Olympia · Mar 17, 2010

Layfan said:
Well, I suppose there is always something a little pointless to making some definitive statement about who is a better skater than who.
It might be more interesting to say Michelle had greater security in her jumps and displayed more confidence than Sasha, but Sasha had better spins and positions.
Or you could say Kim Yuna is a more powerful jumper than Michelle was and a faster skater and maybe even more musical. But Michelle showed more emotion, connected better with the audience, had a better spiral and pointed her feet...
Who is to say who is better? I probably depends on what each of us values most about skating.

Agreed, Layfan.

I understand that many people prefer Sasha or some other skater to Michelle--variety is the spice of life. For myself, I love both of those skaters but prefer Michelle. What I can't agree with is the thought that she is not artistic. She may be a different kind of artistic, but she definitely skates with art--she's smooth and lyrical and seems to skate from somewhere inside the music.

Though I tend to prefer artistic skaters, I don't assume that whether someone's skating moves me personally is an indication of whether the person is artistic. For example, I'm not a huge fan of Oksana Baiul, but I see that she is clearly an artistic skater.

Kwan is definitely artistic. That much I think is beyond argument. Deciding whether she's more artistic than someone else, or less artistic, probably comes down to individual taste.

However, despite Tara's lights-out skate at Nagano, I don't think there are many people who would say that Michelle has less artistry than Tara.

Layfan · Mar 17, 2010

Olympia said:
Agreed, Layfan.

I understand that many people prefer Sasha or some other skater to Michelle--variety is the spice of life. For myself, I love both of those skaters but prefer Michelle. What I can't agree with is the thought that she is not artistic. She may be a different kind of artistic, but she definitely skates with art--she's smooth and lyrical and seems to skate from somewhere inside the music.

Though I tend to prefer artistic skaters, I don't assume that whether someone's skating moves me personally is an indication of whether the person is artistic. For example, I'm not a huge fan of Oksana Baiul, but I see that she is clearly an artistic skater.

Kwan is definitely artistic. That much I think is beyond argument. Deciding whether she's more artistic than someone else, or less artistic, probably comes down to individual taste.

However, despite Tara's lights-out skate at Nagano, I don't think there are many people who would say that Michelle has less artistry than Tara.

And yet at least one poster thought so! The spice of life as you say :biggrin:

It's kind of bold to disagree with the majority of fans and all the judges who gave Michelle a record number of 6.0s on artistry at nationals and the ones who often gave her 6.0s at worlds... I'm always at a loss to understand people who say either Michelle or Sasha's skating does nothing for them but I like hearing their opinions.

I'll be bold and say Katarina Witt doesn't do as much as for me as I always expect.... go figure.

jBroxton7001 · Mar 17, 2010

It is kind of expected development given this title.
The Kween predominates entire thread as usual.

pokky_oc · Mar 17, 2010

Just listing in no particular order btw

Yu-Na Kim
Mao Asada
Michelle Kwan
Midori Ito
Kristi Yamaguchi
Sasha Cohen
Mirai Nagasu
Irina Slutskaya
Tara Lipinski

Big Deal · Mar 17, 2010

1. Yu-Na Kim.
2.Kristi Yamaguchi.
3. Lu Chen.
4.Janet Lynn.
5.Denis Bielmann.
6.Michelle Kwan.
7.Katarina Witt
8.Midori Ito
9.Mao Asada.
10.Gaby Seyferth.

They all gave me wonderful memories, watching figure skating since the late 1960s.
I've never seen an artistic skater with that technical skill at the same time than Yu-Na Kim. That is why SHE is my Number one, even if I'm European.

Kwanford Wife · Mar 17, 2010

Layfan said:
And yet at least one poster thought so! The spice of life as you say
It's kind of bold to disagree with the majority of fans and all the judges who gave Michelle a record number of 6.0s on artistry at nationals and the ones who often gave her 6.0s at worlds... I'm always at a loss to understand people who say either Michelle or Sasha's skating does nothing for them but I like hearing their opinions.

I'll be bold and say Katarina Witt doesn't do as much as for me as I always expect.... go figure.

I am always facinated by how Kat ages over time... For many, myself included, we consider her one of the greats, if not the great, but it tends to be more on her as the Greatest Competitor vs. Greatest Skater. I also put Tara into this catergory - that girl knew how to compete. But does the ability to compete make you great or are you great therefore you can compete?

Skating is a sport, so preferences on artistic vs. technical vs. athletic are sometimes silly - skaters are technical athelets who compete in an artistic sport - but is it all smoke and mirrors? Does a skater only become great because they know how to compete? And if this is true - where does that leave Michelle & Irina who were dominate for so long but both without the OGM and Sasha who is beautiful but will retire without a major title?

Spun Silver · Mar 17, 2010

I can't rank these and I'm not finishing my list of ten because I haven't seen enough of the Ladies of years past.

Yu Na - Even with her weaknesses (spins & spiral) her combo of easy jumps, natural gifts, and expressiveness is astounding.
Midori Ito - Just irresistible and the best jumper ever.
Sasha - Fiery and exquisite in spite of her lack of big titles. She achieved her potential for beauty and memorable programs, if not medals.
Lu Chen - Sheer lyricism - one of my first and lasting favorites.
Kwan - A champion for the ages - how likely is it that even a Yu Na will be able to match Kwan's record?
Lucinda Ruh - Champion of spins - what a phenom!
Mao - Even though the last season dampened my enthusiasm, I have no doubt she'll rise up again and prove she deserves to be near the top of a greatest-ever list.

Blades of Passion · Mar 17, 2010

Kwanford Wife said:
I am always facinated by how Kat ages over time... For many, myself included, we consider her one of the greats, if not the great, but it tends to be more on her as the Greatest Competitor vs. Greatest Skater.

Katarina wasn't even the "greatest competitor". She didn't skate perfectly either of the times that she won her Olympic Gold Medals and she was overscored both times too. In 1984 I think Tiffany Chin deserved to place 1st in both the SP and the LP and then in 1988 Midori Ito made everyone else look like little girls.

Kwanford Wife · Mar 18, 2010

Blades of Passion said:
Katarina wasn't even the "greatest competitor". She didn't skate perfectly either of the times that she won her Olympic Gold Medals and she was overscored both times too. In 1984 I think Tiffany Chin deserved to place 1st in both the SP and the LP and then in 1988 Midori Ito made everyone else look like little girls.

Don't you hate how shady judging has a way of always skewing our viewpoints? Because while I prefer to attribute her success to jedi mind tricks, given the timeframe and skating in general I know it would niave of me to assume judging high jinks didn't come into play...and jedi jokes are so much more fun...sigh...

Enero · Mar 18, 2010

Spun Silver said:
Kwan - A champion for the ages - how likely is it that even a Yu Na will be able to match Kwan's record?

How likely will it be that she'll match Kwan and Slutskaya's record? I think both ladies are tied when it comes to major titles (16). Anyway, I think if she remains in the game for another 4-6 years and continue to dominate the way she's currently dominating she'll definitely surpass Kwan and Slute.

dlgpffps · Mar 19, 2010

Kwanford Wife said:
Nah... I totally disagree. Michelle Kwan is a legend because of what happened when she stepped on the ice. Not because of the medals she won. Now, I can understand a person preferring Sasha to Michelle (well, actually I can't - but that is a personal issue) but to insist that a skater is popular simply because we were used to seeing her is a bit disrespectful to both her legend and fans.

In short, Michelle is so beloved, around the world - not just in the US, because of her talent, not her medals. The medals just make ubers like me more obnoxious.

She's beloved because of her classy, generous personality as well. She had so much charm and love. It always felt like she had an open heart. I think she's special also because she had been around for so long. I felt like we had grown up together, as I followed her through trial and tribulation, tears of joy and tears of happiness. When she was on ice, she wasn't just skating through the elements; she was taking us on a journey. I don't care what people say about her. Her titles don't matter to me at all. She's just so much more than a skater to me.

Jaana · Mar 19, 2010

I chose only five skaters from past 30 years:

1. Katarina Witt
2. Yu-Na Kim
3. Shizuka Arakawa
4. Michelle Kwan
5. Sasha Cohen

cosmos · Mar 19, 2010

From past 30 years,

1. YuNa Kim
2. Katarina Witt
3. Christi Yamaguchi
4. Michelle Kwan
5. Midori Ito
6. Irina Slutskaya.

Spun Silver · Mar 19, 2010

Enero said:
How likely will it be that she'll match Kwan and Slutskaya's record? I think both ladies are tied when it comes to major titles (16). Anyway, I think if she remains in the game for another 4-6 years and continue to dominate the way she's currently dominating she'll definitely surpass Kwan and Slute.

I don't know about Kwan and Slute being tied. I think many would consider five World Championship titles to two and nine national titles to four pretty decisive.

As for Yu Na, obviously nobody can say now. How long she competes, how her body holds up - those are the unknown variables. To say nothing of Mao 3.0 and Mirai. : )

Your top ten ladies of all time?

Layfan

Kwanford Wife

jenaj

Kwanford Wife

Layfan

Layfan

Olympia

Layfan

jBroxton7001

pokky_oc

Big Deal

Kwanford Wife

Spun Silver

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Kwanford Wife

Enero

dlgpffps

Jaana

cosmos

Spun Silver

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