Age-appropriate programs

Tomboy Lady skater: a perfect embodiment of Slutskaya's charm. I didn't love her skating as much as Kwan's or Cohen's, but I loved what she brought to skating. Why should everyone be alike?

One of the things that made her career so enjoyable to watch was her personality. I loved that she and Michelle seemed to be genuine friends as well as fierce competitors. It also seemed that she was quite popular in America--deservedly so, in my opinion.

By the way, as for credentials to talk about various aspects of skating, in my possibly subversive opinion, our screen names are our credentials. We went to the effort to join a skating site. That means we love skating. Some of us are more expert than others in things like skating technique or dance or music, but we all get to like things in our own way, and to say so. (That is, short of insulting other posters, or skaters.) I mean, sometimes I can't tell a salchow from a loop, but I know enough about how people move to music (and about the music itself) that I get a lot of joy from skating nonetheless, and I enjoy discussing it. Though it is enlightening to find out which of us have dance training or skating skills--or is Mathman!--I think that doesn't disqualify everyone else from having an opinion. After all, one of us might have beginner's luck and stumble on something useful!

NBC milked her backstory (ABC did, too) during the Olympics. Probably had a lot to do with it.

Olympia said:

--or is Mathman!--

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Things I know nothing about:

1. Skating
2. Dancing
3. Music
4. Sports

Go ahead, ask me anything! "I have an opinion, I have an opinion -- what's the topic?"

Mathman said:

Things I know nothing about:

1. Skating
2. Dancing
3. Music
4. Sports

Go ahead, ask me anything! "I have an opinion, I have an opinion -- what's the topic?"

Click to expand...

OK - here you go....
Can you or anyone else explain to me if the following programs are "age appropriate"?

Also, I am not sure if age appropriate pertains to figure skating and music. Yes, I concede there is bad taste and gestures that could be deemed inappropriate.

But does music itself really become inappropriate based on a skater's age? If so how?

YUNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBQXzkqUuVI&feature=related


MAO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm5xsi9Ypu0


SASHA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBLujpeQQC8


MIKI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4AVPUpVBbU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUSZtCXaS64

Okay, you asked. Carmen to me is just music unless the girl (or boy) starts acting the more seductive parts of the role. However, there have been age inappropriate programs.

Here is an age inappropriate program.
Nuss & Paetsch EX Barbie Girl

He looks too old.
She looks too young
And the lyrics do not improve the situation.

Plushenko is either too old or too young for this program (both halves of the program are quite dreadful)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m28xZx7gp_8

Here is some music that is age appropriate and enjoyable when Abt skates it, but if he were 10 years old, it would not be age appropriate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcLVLNpVvrQ

I've never been a believer in dressing age-appropriate. Instead I think one whould dress what suits one's body and lifestyle. As for skating programs, I find this discussion rather ambiguous and more of an allusion.

It seems the topic is really about female skater's sexuality and at what age it would be socially acceptable for the Ladies skaters to flirt or fluant sexiness. Some have also touched on life experiences accoding to age.

Generally, skating competitors are under age 30, with the females being quite a bit younger, girls mostly. If skating programs should be age appropriate, meaning portraying someone of similar age as the skater, it would be very limiting indeed. What about Abbott's LP as an Italian Jewish father? Who could skate to Dr. Zhivago, or Charlie Chaplin? OTOH, should anybody or any pair over age 16 skate as Romeo And Juliet? What about Belbin/Agosto show program portraying a couple from childhood to adulthood?

Skating may be like dancing and acting. With the capacity to portray the feelings, of a character or a story, need the skater/dancer/actor be of the right age or have similar life experiences?

I still think you guys are debating female sexuality.

janetfan said:

OK - here you go....

Can you or anyone else explain to me if the following programs are "age appropriate"?

...does music itself really become inappropriate based on a skater's age?

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OK, first, IMHO there is nothing sexy about the music of Carmen as music. What is sexy about "Tor-e-a-dor-a, Don't spit on the floor-a, Use the cus-pi-dor-a, That's what it's for-a?" I mean, its not like they were skating to "I'm...too sexy for my cat" (that classic torch song. )

Second, these skaters clearly have other things on their minds, like landing their triple Salchows.

There was nothing remotely sexy about any of these performances. OK, Miki did try a Carmenesque stare into the camera in her opening pose. But she was flirtier doing "Mickey, Mickey, You're So Fine!"

Sasha had "attitude," as Peggy Fleming said. IMHO Sasha's all-time great program was Hernando's Hideaway, also when she was about 16. The great thing about Hernado's Hideaway is that you can sing the Robert Frost Poem "Stopping by woods on a snowing evening" to it:

"Whose woods...these are...I think I know!
His home...is in...the village though!
...
...
And miles...to go be-...fore I sleep, O-le!

As for Mao's program, this is "age inappropriate" only if you think the child who gets to play a mouse in the annual Christmas production of Nutcracker at the community theater is inappropriate.

SkateFiguring said:

I still think you guys are debating female sexuality.

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Abt and Plushy would be appalled at your suggestion that I am suggesting they are females (check out the programs I posted.)

One is about pedophilia (Paetsch & Nuss)
Plush parading around in a baby suit and then in a muscled baby suit to Sex Bomb; Lord knows what it is about, but its squicky.
Abt skating to a song with full double entendre lyrics.

dorispulaski said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUSZtCXaS64

Okay, you asked. Carmen to me is just music unless the girl (or boy) starts acting the more seductive parts of the role. However, there have been age inappropriate programs.

Here is an age inappropriate program.
Nuss & Paetsch EX Barbie Girl

He looks too old.
She looks too young
And the lyrics do not improve the situation.

Plushenko is either too old or too young for this program (both halves of the program are quite dreadful)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m28xZx7gp_8

Here is some music that is age appropriate and enjoyable when Abt skates it, but if he were 10 years old, it would not be age appropriate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcLVLNpVvrQ

Click to expand...

Sort of my point Doris - that MUSIC by itself is not necessarily a problem. Your objection is about the lyrics - which I can't understand watching the clip - but will take your world for it.

Your examples are good and I conceded "bad taste" can be a problem. There were some complaints about Morozov after we saw Florent and Javi's new programs with the "crotch" grab. Others could argue that MJ's Dance moves are part of Pop culture.

A member complained about Kanako using "Be Italian."
I don't see anything wrong with that and think it is a cute routine that seems to focus on the song's broader theme of embracing life.

Getting back to Mirai and Carmen - I think any praise or criticism of the program should not necessarily focus on Mirai. Lori did the program and Frank also had imput. Mirai skated the program as closely to what Lori and Frank wanted from her. We know Frank, especially with a new student does not let them run the show.

If some think Mirai was not sexy or seductive enough they are entitled to their opinions.
I feel sure from Frank's POV he wanted Mirai to charm the audience and particularly the judges with the program. For me it was a very pleasing program. Some of the ovations Mirai received last season would seem to show arena fans liked it too.

Another example could be Yuna's "Bond Girl." I happen to like the program but having seen various Bond flicks over the years I am not sure if I saw anything resembling a "Bond Girl" from a point of sexiness, violence or danger.

Sometimes fans expect too much or have unrealistic ideas about competitive skating. Because opera divas who sing the role of Carmen are never young girls and the opera version itself is not presented the way skating is - as a family friendly entertainment - there is no reason for comparisons to be taken too literally.

Yuna has millions of fans - just not at home but around the world. Many of them are young and David Wilson is way too smart to have put Yuna in a position where her "Bond Girl" would have come off as controversial. For that matter Yuna and her closest advisors are too smart to have made "Bond Girl" a more realisitc portrayal of what we have seen in the films.

I dunno - this is just so obvious to me..... Yuna and Mirai being overtly sexual in Olympic routines would in no way push the "sport" forward or help keep the fan base let alone enlarge it.

We have other entertainers and other forms of entertainment for peole who are looking for that type of thing.

Amodio's version of MJ's routine, I find in bad taste. Mostly it's the white gloves. It's like he is saying, "I want to be sure that you can see me grabbing my crotch," not only just grabbing his crotch like Michael Jackson.

But that's not about his age. That's just bad taste.

I would find it age inappropriate if a 10 year old boy (or girl) were doing it.

dorispulaski said:

Amodio's version of MJ's routine, I find in bad taste. Mostly it's the white gloves. It's like he is saying, "I want to be sure that you can see me grabbing my crotch," not only just grabbing his crotch like Michael Jackson.

But that's not about his age. That's just bad taste.

I would find it age inappropriate if a 10 year old boy (or girl) were doing it.

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Yes, but are you complaining about the MUSIC - or the choreography and costume?
In a general sense I think anybody of any age can skate to Carmen or Michael Jackson.

Objections that may come up would be based on things other than the music itself.

Would you feel it was age inappropriate if a 10 year old girl were skating to stripper music and miming taking off her clothes? How about if she were just bumping and grinding to it?

Da da ta DAHHH da Da da ta DAHHHH da

Links on youtube generally appear to have partially clothed people in them, so no link.

Of course, what you find inappropriate depends a good deal on who you are. I knew a Classics professor who found SuperCalifragilisticExpalidocious highly inappropriate because it is written in ithyphallic meter, the meter of the hymns to Bacchus and Pan.

dorispulaski said:

Would you feel it was age inappropriate if a 10 year old girl were skating to stripper music and miming taking off her clothes? How about if she were just bumping and grinding to it?

Da da ta DAHHH da Da da ta DAHHHH da

Links on youtube generally appear to have partially clothed people in them, so no link.

Of course, what you find inappropriate depends a good deal on who you are. I knew a Classics professor who found SuperCalifragilisticExpalidocious highly inappropriate because it is written in ithyphallic meter, the meter of the hymns to Bacchus and Pan.

Click to expand...

Again - I agree with you about the question of taste. And no, I don't think it would be age appropriate for a 10 year old to skate to music while mimicking a stripper. But that's just me......

I do think it was fine for a very young Mao to skate to Habanera from Carmen though.

I thought Yagudin's banana routine was horrible and showed Hall of Fame bad taste. But it was mostly for being such a stupid, ill-conceived routine.........

dorispulaski said:

I knew a Classics professor who found SuperCalifragilisticExpalidocious highly inappropriate because it is written in ithyphallic meter, the meter of the hymns to Bacchus and Pan.

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I have a new appreciation for ONE-two-three-four, ONE-two three-four.

dorispulaski said:

Would you feel it was age inappropriate if a 10 year old girl were skating to stripper music and miming taking off her clothes? How about if she were just bumping and grinding to it?

Da da ta DAHHH da Da da ta DAHHHH da

Links on youtube generally appear to have partially clothed people in them, so no link.

Of course, what you find inappropriate depends a good deal on who you are. I knew a Classics professor who found SuperCalifragilisticExpalidocious highly inappropriate because it is written in ithyphallic meter, the meter of the hymns to Bacchus and Pan.

Click to expand...

Again I come to GS for psychological healing! This is a stitch. Thanks, Doris.

Janetfan, I see the point of what you're saying. I have to add that for me, what I look for is not overt sexiness but an emotional connection with the music (and as you say, it doesn't have to be the exact character portrayed in the original work). This kind of emotional expressiveness is also something that is often beyond an immature skater. (Of course, there are exceptions. I bring up Michelle, of course. You can all supply others.)

In fact, Carmen is an especially interesting example, because the opera itself doesn't have a single sympathetic character in it. It's a very cold story, as we've said before on this thread. So I don't think of Carmen and Don Jose and how they ruin each other when I hear that wonderful catchy music. It's more the cultural quality of it--the essence of Spain, maybe (which Bizet captured despite not being Spanish himself)--that I associate with Carmen. By contrast, when I hear the music of Tosca, I definitely think of the actress portrayed in the libretto, with her fierce confrontation of Scarpia and her "With me before God!" cry as she makes the only ending possible after Scarpia's treachery. I don't expect a skater to tell that exact story, but I'd love seeing a portrayal of a strong woman by the skater.

That's the essence of what I mean by age-appropriate. Not so much sexuality as emotional subtlety and power. As people often say of Michelle, does the skater take me inside the music? Or is he/she just moving in a businesslike way to the music, checking off jumps along the way? After all, the music might not even tell a story. That lovely program Doris linked us to on another thread, showing a very young Rachael skating to a Brahms trio, comes to mind. She brought me in without benefit of any storyline whatever.

Olympia said:

That's the essence of what I mean by age-appropriate. Not so much sexuality as emotional subtlety and power. As people often say of Michelle, does the skater take me inside the music? Or is he/she just moving in a businesslike way to the music, checking off jumps along the way? After all, the music might not even tell a story. That lovely program Doris linked us to on another thread, showing a very young Rachael skating to a Brahms trio, comes to mind. She brought me in without benefit of any storyline whatever.

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This, I agree with on all levels. Maturity is about the emotion, and how you feel the music. Tara felt "Anastasia," because she was 15 when she skated it. I don't know if she would have been able to "feel" Rachmaninoff, or Bartok. Her Anastasia SP didn't have a character--but she conveyed the music through her skating. This made it age-appropriate for her.

On another note, some programs, in my opinion, will never ever be age-appropriate for any skater--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJgL8Clf_h0